The Quarterdeck - Turn Discussion Thread

[Cornflakes]

Just sent the following to M3. Best to snap up the NAP while it's offered I bought us a few days in replying. If Gillette really did just establish a 4-city foothold on the island I think they are very much in the running still to beat Trolls. It'll be 15 turns at absolute minimum before we else will be in position to found cities on that island, probably the same for anyone else. That's enough time for growth and whip twice, especially if accompanied by workers and workboats to improve food. Once that growth curve gets in full swing the rest of us will have a hard time carving out our "fair share".

We agree to NAP extension to T200.

Haven't thought about end game yet honestly. thestick is away for the weekend but we'll get back to you when we have a chance to talk things over.

Cornflakes
Team Pirates

[Cornflakes]

RED ALERT!
RED ALERT!

Q bought the army off Trolls!!! And he says he is 1200-gold in debt to Trolls for the cost of the army He says he's not accepting an NAP without concessions

Cornflakes: Do you have a few minutes to talk demogame diplo?

Qgqqqqq: Yeah ok.
Not long please
So NAP or war?

Cornflakes: First off we are not planning to attack you. M3 *had* and NAP with us until T170. We've been repeatedly emailing and PMing with no response.

Qgqqqqq: Then sign a NAP. You've already made me pay through the nose though, so I'd like some compensation
M3 has been irritating yeah

Cornflakes: FINALLY, after we'd diverted our tech path to Nationalism (which we have now) we received a response after playing T170 and showing muskets + catapults in Havana.

Qgqqqqq: which was...

Cornflakes: NAP.

Qgqqqqq: So you're turning round to hit me?
Possibly with some shiny grens?

Cornflakes: No, I already said we do not want war. Would you take ant NAP to T195 for starters? That's 25 turns from the present turn.

Qgqqqqq: I'll take one till t220. I also will want at least 300 gold.

Cornflakes: M3 has research visibility. In an effort to appear as spikey a target as possible we set our research to Military Tradition, which we can research in 3 turns.

Qgqqqqq: I've spent a LOT of money on protecting against you, I can't afford to just sign unfortunately.

Cornflakes: We signed NAP with M3 to T200 and it is not prudent for us to have two neighbors with NAP's expiring at the same time. We can extend to T205 if that works?

Qgqqqqq: Sorry I really wish we could've talked earler

Cornflakes: You spent money?

Qgqqqqq: Context: I just bought a significant portion of Trolls army

Cornflakes: I told you repeatedly that we would discuss extension of the NAP as the time draws closer.

Qgqqqqq: ...which I told you at the time I was taking as an intent to do war.
Something which wasn't discouraged by your rising power.

Cornflakes: Which was forced by M3's lack of response ...

Qgqqqqq: Which I was not told about
This looks very much to me like coverup from an intention to get scraps of me after Trolls did the hard work
That forced me to choose between trolls and you. I bought off trolls

Cornflakes: I will tell you honestly that we did intend to pick off those two western cities if the opportunity arose. And you can't blame us for that desire. I cannot offer 300 gold to you without discussing with thestick though.

Qgqqqqq: I'm actally reevaluating if 300 is enough...
I can't win at peace...
I've just butchered my economy

Cornflakes: We are Spiritual and can swap into Nationhood at will. We have gunpowder and can draft muskets. We will have Grenadiers in 3 turns. We have a stack of catapults already (which you have seen or soon will see by your breach of the No Scouting agreement).

Qgqqqqq: FUCK
I have no idea of these agreements
Tas told me nothing
and yes, you could stop me, but it would kill you
(long term wise

Cornflakes: Don't worry. We're not holding that against you.

Qgqqqqq: )

Cornflakes: (the breach)
We have nothing to hide, as anything you see will make you less desiring of war.

Qgqqqqq: Further context: I am 1200 gold in debt, because mainly of our misunderstanding

Cornflakes: But if you scout then we also scout.
Seriously?
That much debt?

Qgqqqqq: You have much more pop and cities.
Tas left me with 1 cat, and a bunch of crossbows
I bought life, which involved an army because of (IMO) your threatening
behaviour
yes

Cornflakes: Well, I don't know that we can discuss more then at this time. Thestick is out of town through this weekend (not sure when he gets in town, but I think Saturday evening which would be Sunday your time).

Qgqqqqq: Ok, please get back to me
You understand my predicament

Cornflakes: Will do
And quite a predicament too! Let us know if you see any way out other than war.

Qgqqqqq: I do...a big peace treaty with some gold attatched

Cornflakes: The amount?

Qgqqqqq: How much CAN I get? I want 800, I just don't expect it

Cornflakes: We'll talk it over and see what we can offer.

Full chat in spoilers. Do you know of an easier way to get gchat "hangouts" for posting in thread? Simple copy and past was a total mess but I doctored it up in notepad++ so it doesn't hurt the head trying to keep track of who said what. I love notepad++

[Cornflakes]

Ok, the current situation actually not as bad as it sounds ... assuming Q waits until the NAP expired and doesn't Sneak Attack us earlier. He's desperate and plays by "what's best for the survival of the civ in game" so a sneak attack is within the realm of possibility.

PICTURE DUMP




This was waiting when I logged in. Upon exiting the diplo screen I saw two TEAM knights in our territory in violation of the No Scouting agreement we've had in place. This two things set off alarm bells in my head and I immediately hit up Q on gchat (now hangout, apparently). We'd discussed Astronomy next and the island continent, so I felt OK offering and NAP to T200 +/- 5 turns. As it turns out it's good I did talk to Q before playing the turn.

I doubt we'll get peace now. He's committed to war at the all-in cost of his economy (not that it had much chance anyway). This is NTT and he just gave up over 1200 gold (he's still in debt 1200) . I therefore set research to Military Science at 3 turns and queued up Maces in most cities for the auto-upgrade. Without whipping we can get out probably 8 Grenadiers in the next 6-8 turns. With whipping we can double that number with an additional turn or two, which is still in time for T180 . We have Nationhood + Theocracy in the cards for emergencies ... it would kill to swap out of bureaucracy, but if needed we must.

I'd wait until Q actually declares. We have enough happy through HR to double draft our border cities, and combined with the whip this should be sufficient to squash any invasion. Maracaibo is the only city that can be hit in 1-turn with knights, so we stuff that with our pikes and throw in a couple muskets for good measure. Then we plop our Cats + Grenadiers + other junk down in zone defense and dare him to invade




Demographics. Good GNP. 1st at 100%. Power is not worrisome *assuming* Q doesn't sneak attack. Our power will be all Grenadiers and Muskets, while Trolls didn't have Gunpowder until recently (still don't???) and so couldn't have gifted much except maces/Knights/Cats. We have 10 catapults of our own now which is enough to deal with a Medieval invasion stack .








MFG graph looks to be in our favor. If you look back up at the Demos, Rival Worst is 67 to our 111 and I did not emphasize hammers. We have at least 6-7 mines that are sitting vacant in favor of cottages which would add another 25hpt. Right now Q's output is <1.5 LB/Cat per turn empire wide.




We have achieved our goal of getting into a clear *Not_Last* position, but only because another team sacrificed to try and take out Trolls. Next goal: somehow improve our position by our own efforts.




Q's give-a-city-to-Trolls-for-peace opened up the Wheat for settling. We have to be quick about this because Trolls can settle just outside our culture and shake their fists at us. Settler will be whipped next turn in Havana and roads will be in place to move the settler to that hill and found in 1-turn. Worker will then chop the forest there into Terrace for quick border pop (Missionary for OrgRel bonus to come from either overflow from Havana whip or from San Juan).




How on earth are two Great People born in the same city on the same turn Only one answer comes to mind: Trolls got the GScientist naturally and got the GMerchant by researching Economics first.

[Cornflakes]

My opinion is steadily increasing that anexing TEAM's remaining territory should be our plan. We can have Steel in 5 turns of breakeven research after spending the rest of our gold to research Military Science, and this times at EOT178. Astronomy is another 8 turns Total at breakeven. Astronomy will allow us to slip around behind, possibly picking off a weak backslines city but at minimum forcing Q to split defensive forces away from the main front. Even a pair of empty galleons can distract with the threat of 6 Grenadiers/Cannon.

Another advantage. We're NAP'ed up with M3 for quite a while, and Q is probably long-term NAP'ed with Trolls so we'll be free from interfearance.

Proposed tech path: Military Science (2t @100% now) > Steel > Astronomy ... I say Steel before Astronomy because we can build Cannon in the turns while we're researching Astronomy, while earlier galleons won't do much if we won't be ready to march until after Cannon come online.

[Cornflakes]

Diplomatically

– With Q we can't do much. He's demanded 800 gold which I have NO intention of giving up. In 10 turns our military will be an era ahead, and we'll only get stronger as Cannon get added to the mix. He has soon-to-be-outdated garbage and no way to get new tech with his "debt" to Trolls. We may not be ready to invade come T180 but he certainly won't be able to do anything beyond pillaging a few border tiles. If he moves up a stack we collateral it and whack it with shiny new Grens and Muskets. After flatly refusing his demands in as few words as possible we then shut up and build up: "Q, we are agreed to NEVER give up anything for extending NAP."

– We need to Compose a message to Trolls in the next couple turns saying:

Tropical Trolls

(1) TEAM (i.e. Q) is threatening invasion when our NAP expires T180 and is trying to extort concessions from us for continued peace. We have no intention of budging an inch and are prepared to defend our territory at all cost should he attack. Having bought your army at premium price he appears determined to gain concessions from us. Can we have your guarantee to cease all unit gifting after Turn 175 (allowing you to complete your current obligations, but no more).

(2) Would you be willing to extend the current 10-turn rolling NAP to a hard-line NAP to T205, at which time the rolling NAP will take over again? The hard-line NAP is conditional upon your agreement to cease unit gifting in that time period. If you are not comfortable extending the NAP that far ahead we ask that at a minimum you cease unit gifting for the duration of the Rolling NAP. Our NAP with M3 extends to T200, and I'm sure you understand our prudent desire to stagger the dates.

(3) There is talk of a looming dogpile to "make this go out with a bang". If you agree to remain neutral with regard to TEAM from this point forward we agree to remain neutral in any upcoming conflict in which you may be involved including unit, resource, and gold gifting; excluding fair-price trades such as luxury-for-luxury and allowing you to continue your current Furs + Gold gift to TEAM.

We appreciate your cooperation and look forward to fair dealings in the future.
The Pirates

[Cornflakes]

Edited the above message to Trolls if you saw it earlier. Your comments and thoughts welcome. We need to decide this ASAP, but I will not send something like this without discussion first. This is rather lengthy, but it is not unreasonable and builds naturally. Is there anything you think we should add/remove?

[thestick]

Owch. (Stupid autocorrect thinks on typing Lacy). No way were giving up 800 gold for an NAP. Bravo to Trolls for selling Q an army.

Is rival WorSt power M3? Just checking...

why are we settling another city if were gearing up for war?

I think we should swap to Nationhood theology NOW. nationhoods so efficient at pulling out an army. We have amillion cats bit no hitters. Muskets on the ground now is more important that Grenadiers later. Storms coming, no use denying it.

Agree winn tech path, except astoonomy, but wool figure itbout when we her there.

I doubt Trolls will stop proping up Q. GEt Gillette and m3 to atack trolls?

[thestick]

Crossppst, give me a minute.

[thestick]

And were sure that Trolls actually gifted an army and his isn't a bluff? Yes, it probably is true, but skeptisism kicked in.

[thestick]

I don't see any reason for trolls to cooperate with us and stop prolong up q. Its still worth a shot, though. I think we should cut out points 1and 2 snce we're not stoong enough OK demand hhings.