Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[Sullla]

Now that looks a lot better. Can we retract that three-way draw offer? Thanks for the reporting and continuing to kick some serious behind Singaboy. Here are a few quick thoughts:

* I would strongly urge you not to have Rome finish Electronics research. As soon as that tech completes, it will obsolete privateers and replace them with submarines. Since privateers do benefit from Press Gangs policy while subs do not, you'll essentially be trading the ability to train 140 production effective cost privateers (280 cost with Press Gangs cutting that in half) for the ability to train 480 production cost submarines. That's about three times more expensive and makes the subs so expensive that the game will finish before they do. There is a time to complete Electronics research, and that's when Rome can get up to 1500-2000 gold and mass upgrade privateers into subs all at once. However, since both Rome and China are both broke right now, finishing Electronics tech will only end up hurting you. Again, I strongly suggest researching something else instead.

* Speaking of gold, I don't suppose there's any way to get Rome's ships back to Lisbon in time to defend it? I'm sure that TheArchduke is going to attack and raze the city as soon as he can declare war, starting on Turn 161 if I remember correctly. Obviously we need to finish up capturing the remaining English cities on the eastern ocean before we can think about going back to defend Lisbon. Is that possible at all (?) Having the city state razed would be a pretty sizable blow to our economies, although I think Rome can re-route traders to Chinese cities and China can send traders to Roman cities without too much loss. Rome's trade routes to Lisbon were worth about 15 gold/turn against roughly 10 gold/turn to Chinese cities. So that's a real loss, although not the end of the world either. Obviously losing the 6 envoy bonus on all of the Commercial districts would also be a real blow.

On the plus side, I believe that the Levee en Masse policy will be worth about 100 gold/turn in savings, and that would offset much of the cost from losing Lisbon. Furthermore, if Rome keep capturing English cities and building traders, that will be worth a ton of money as well. So maybe we'll be OK and can survive the loss of Lisbon after all. I sure would love to pounce on that German naval detachment and destroy it while it's separated from the rest of the German civ though.

* I'm a bit concerned about pushing tanks forward against Woden and Chevalier. While they're monstrously powerful at 90 melee strength (in corps), they aren't invincible either. I do like your plan to draw Woden's units up to the north and catch him while his units are in transition, opening up a path for China to attack. I would still be very cautious here.

* One other note: remember that Rome will want Wars of Religion policy while fighting Nubia, Germany, or Russia (i.e. anyone other than England). The extra +5 strength is very much worth using a policy slot on. When Mobilization civic finishes, I would drop Native Conquest for Wars of Religion and perhaps drop Meritocracy (or even Rationalism) for Levee en Masse. We may be close to the point where additional civics don't really matter that much and having both Triangular Trade and Levee en Masse in place are more important to keep the economy running. If you can slot in Levee en Masse, build some more traders via captured English Harbors, and somehow keep Lisbon alive, Rome's income should shoot back up to 300 gold/turn and start piling up money for more upgrades. More realistically, Rome will stay roughly around 200 gold/turn due to Lisbon getting razed. Too bad, but better than falling down under 100 gold/turn.

* The 10 turn enforced war period is now finished with England/Nubia. If you can finish capturing all the English cities on the eastern ocean, I'd think about offering them peace and see if they bite. I doubt they would accept since this game seems to have turned into an Always War exercise, but you can at least float the proposal and see what they do. That would then buy us ten turns to deal with Germany and Russia without interference from England or Nubia. Worth a shot I think.

Thanks for the updates, I'm enjoying reading along.

[Singaboy]

Thanks for your input here. I did not intend to finish electronics due to precisely those reasons. I simply wanted it to be at 1 turn completion.

I am not sure whether Rome's navy could catch the German fleet. It is a pity that I can't get a tank into Lisbon. I had hoped that their units will be upgraded. Next turn, I will sink in a few more envoys. Maybe that helps.

[Modo]

What about making Lisbon into a reverse Nan Madol and bait ze germans into bringing more forces there while you're in transit?

[Kerberos]

Have you considered founding the new canal city one tile east of old razed one, that would bring some chops and harvests into second ring, plus free the hill for mining ?
(In theory you could also place the city E-SE of old location and speed up Roman ship movement to southern sea, but that location would be extremely bad resource-wise in the first ring atleast)

Good to remember too, that while you Spy on the Germans, they may spy on you Hopefully the bug has been fixed, where one could steal more gold than in target civs treasury at the time of the steal... Would be bad news to wake up with -700 gold decifit in treasury...
(note: i only lurk this thread, not other ones, to keep my interest going. note edited in incase someone thinks this was referece to German activities; its not as far as i know)

[Singaboy]

@Kerberos, that might be a good idea. I can't found the city this turn anyway as the settler is just short of movement points. Might as well shift the location a tile.

T147 (Rome)
The situation with regards to England looks pretty promising here. I move in the vessels to attack both Midway and Actium. I am going to hit both cities with battleships before deciding which city will be taken first as I only have one ironclad available. The other ironclad moves out of Valletta while getting promoted to get +10 strength against bombardment. That will make this ironclad even harder to sink.
Note also England's crossbows perfectly lined up to be shot, not too sure why he didn't retreat them.



The result of the battleship bombardment is devastation. Both Midway and Actium have no health left, the musket next to Midway has been sunk (with a lvl 3 battleship with 87 strength for unit bombardment). Obviously the choice is clear which city will be taken first.

I did not foresee such clear result and had thought, I need another round of shelling here. The ironclad which has earned a promotion is still fine to take Midway next turn. These cities are all bare bones after being stripped of all forests and stone. However, Actium has the TGL making Rome's vessels now faster and in turn, England's vessels slower. This is very important. This very turn though, the behavior is weird, even though the movement display increases by one, the remaining ships I move are still at 6 tile actual movement. I need to check this next turn. You can see one unused battleship, which sails west and gets a promotion.

With the bombardment from the sea so devastating, it is time to roll in the tanks. I move in all three tanks and get a somewhat lucky second strike with the tank corp taking the city. Those tanks cut through the English cities like butter. 5 damage taken while causing 167 damage? Amazing. Better still, the city itself can defend the very turn against those English sitting ducks. It is a pity that the third tank here can't attack any longer with too little movement left. I sure would have loved to steal that builder.

With the conquest of Jutland, the roads between Roman land and this city get upgraded for faster movement. That's a Roman feature I guess, very handy indeed. I can roll in the field cannons and clear the land from those crossbows. This is what the situation looks like at the end of the action. Two new cities for Rome, 2 new trade routes available giving a total of 19. 47 gold gained by defeating some units (those units in captured cities and city wall kills don't count).

The situation in the east: The problem with Nubia is that they have reached steel and all their cities are very hard to conquer thanks to 200/200 city defenses. The goal here can only be to draw Nubian units away from China and maybe take out some English cities at the other coast. I wouldn't want to keep them as the English navy could just shell those cities. Razing Leyte Gulf and Abourkir Bay would be additional blows to England.

The Roman navy however, is now free to move west. I need to decide to defend Lisbon or cross over to the other Ocean.

The situation near Germany. England is trying to sail towards out cities via the very south. A long route indeed. The good thing here is, that England can't upgrade their navy unless they manage to take a city. Even with frigate fleets, that won't be that easy. German cities have been upgraded as well in their defenses due to steel. A bummer. The question is, should Rome sail into those waters to fight?

The situation near the northern pole of the world. Germany has quite a few vessels here ready to take Lisbon. Rome's fleet could just arrive in time here to fight Germany on T161. Unless Germany suddenly produces a lot of naval units in their own cities, China should be able to keep Germany at bay in the west. I am no longer scared of all those cossack. I think Russia waited too long to use them. They aren't that stellar against 200/200 cities with defenses of 80+.

So, the question remains, where to send the main navy to? Splitting it might cause a defeat in either location.

The last part of the turn is to offer England a peace deal. If England agrees, the decision will be easier for Rome. By the way, checking their income finally, I spot that England and Nubia have little gold left with England making 100gpt and Nubia none (???). Nubia is basically broke thanks to all the upgrades. That might make their choice of accepting peace a little more attractive? Part of the peace deal are of course the conquered cities as well as Midway. let's see what they will do.

[Modo]

I'd say go for Lisbon, if you try to defend everywhere you'll defend nowhere. Also, with England / Nubia almost gassed and Germany / Russia unable to mount large scale operations and having to focus their efforts it will give you a chance to pick the field of battle.

Given that the game is considered a draw anyway I don't think England / Nubia will go for peace and Germany / Russia are motivated to do something instead of stalling the game any longer.
Either way, you got the upper hand...or four hands.

There's a historian in my country that had a famous saying that roughly translates to "there are defeats that uplift you and victories that diminish you"...this is neither since it was called a draw but I think this would certainly be the most crushing draw around these parts

[Sullla]

Wow, what an insanely satisfying turn to read about. For any of you reading along with this thread, do you ever watch professional Starcraft players? There's a phenomenon in that game where if one player gets enough of a military advantage and defeats the other player's army in the field, they can move on top of the other player's production centers and start killing the new enemy units as they appear. This is the point at which most games are surrendered because the losing player simply can't compete any longer. It looks like Rome reached that same threshhold over the last two turns with England and has now passed the decisive tipping point. All of those cities are ours for the taking, and England's collapse was almost shockingly fast. I can't believe that you were able to take Jutland so easily - 164 damage against 5 damage on the tank attack? Heh. I'd be careful of Woden reinforcing Chevalier, but if he doesn't move some units over, it does look like Leyte Gulf and Aboukir Bay could fall as well. Definitely raze them since we can't hold them against a naval attack on the far ocean. Again, I would be "cautiously bold" if that makes sense.

Definitely do not split the Roman fleet, keep it concentrated to preserve its striking power. I agree with Modo: if you can reach Lisbon in time to get the all-important first strike against the German fleet, I would go north. The critical factor is whether you can hit the German fleet on the first turn of the war; I would count out the tiles to reach that area and make sure that's the case. You have Turns 158, 159, 160, and then playing before Germany on Turn 161 available for movement. It will not be worth heading up there if you can only get "close" to Lisbon and then TheArchduke gets in the first strike. The Great Lighthouse is going to be extremely important here. (Mechanics note on how it works: your naval units get one additional maximum movement point, but they don't magically get an extra movement point on the current turn. An unmoved unit goes from 2/2 movement to 2/3 movement. All units will have that extra movement point starting the next turn.)

Ideally, the Roman fleet goes north and smashes the German ships up there. TheArchduke has put himself in a weird position up there; his ships can upgrade from frigates to battleships in our cultural borders so long as the alliance lasts, but there's no cultural borders up there at all. Only Lisbon and he's never going to become the suzerain with all the envoys China has invested in there. He can't even heal the injured ironclads up there. I guess he expected that England would fare better in the deathmatch for control of the eastern ocean. But now that Rome has won that struggle, we're free to go up there and crush his smaller, unupgraded navy. Catching and sinking those frigates before they can be turned into battleships would be awesome. And if we win there and save Lisbon... well, the sky's the limit at that point. The Roman navy keeps right on steaming to the west and heads for the German island cities, Fellin and its sister city. Take those cities and keep right on going from there, capturing or burning down the German cities on the northern coast of their continent. Woden's eastern cities are on the same body of water and Nubia has no naval units at all. We could eviscerate our two strongest remaining rivals in a part of the map where they aren't expecting to be attacked. We just defend in the southern ocean using privateers, and if things look ugly, Rome can finish Electronics research and turn them into subs. Better to be on the offensive though and keep on burning down the cities of our rivals. Maybe they'll even concede if we can win as decisively in the western ocean as we've won in the eastern ocean.

One other thing to remember: you can upgrade units in the cultural borders of an ally, and Chevalier/Woden are allied with TheArchduke and EmperorK. Those English ships might very well be able to upgrade by using Russian or Germany territory. Just something to keep in mind, I don't think it changes our strategic decision-making. And Chevalier will need to research a bunch of techs to reach Steel and unlock battleships, which is a real question mark at this point. His science has to be in shambles at this point after losing so many cities and having crippling war weariness. What's he at right now, 50 beakers/turn or something like that? I think Chevalier didn't bother to move his crossbows because his morale has been crushed at this point. Don't be surprised if he takes you up on that peace treaty offer. I think England/Nubia might very well be ready for this war to end. At the very least, it was worth making the offer.

One more last thing (heh): TheArchduke's sarcastic post in the General thread means that he has Combustion tech finished and can see oil resources. Is it true that Germany and Russia lack in the way of oil? That could be another huge edge for our team. I'd check for access to oil as a resource in their territory if you have a chance. Woden has Steel tech and Chevalier has Steam Power given that there are ironclads steaming around. I think England is still a long distance from Steel right now, and that's the key thing. And you're completely correct: Russia's poor teching in this game cost EmperorK the chance to do anything significant with cossacks. They're took weak to have much of an effect against 80+ defense cities with 200 HP wall defenses.

Keep it up, you're kicking some serious behind.

[Singaboy]

@Sulla,

I just checked and Rome should have half of its fleet able to attack on T161 with the rest trailing behind. However, I think, I will surely go for the northern division of Germany's navy. From there, more possibilities open up especially when combined with China's naval forces. The question here is, do I have enough gold to upgrade all naval units from China. It doesn't really look that way.

[Singaboy]

T157 (China)

China actually lost a tank corp to Nubia's brutal filed cannon corps boosted by a GG in combination with his cavalry corps. However, to pull back wouldn't solve much. I have to strike back to take out some of his forces too. He would simply promote them and come back. I hit back hard and take out 2 cavalry corps as well as one field cannon corp. His response won't be pretty but at least, I should be able to make sure, he can't just attack our cities.

The other news here is that Rome's navy has not been hurt, Midway's frigate redlined the privateer corp, but that was about it. Midway is in Rome's hands come T158. The rest of the fleet will sail northwest to reach Lisbon on time. If that will be possible, it is due to TGL

China finished steam power to enable ironclads and goes right for combined arms. With mobilization done next turn, I hope to get 3 armies or armadas to finish that technology in 4 turns. Destroyers being the final upgrade from ironclads would make the forces in the west even better. Mobilization will also get China a much needed gpt boost via levee en masse. Sending over gold from Rome can get China only so far.





In the west, a privateer from Nubia has appeared in plain sight. Two battleships take care of it, hoping that there isn't more lurking in the back. I pull back those simple naval units such as quadrirems and galleys and combined them to corps etc. Since I need to prioritize here, I will upgrade the navy first as my frontline cities should be able to hold off any attacks from Germany and Russia. Next turn, I can form armadas which help.



There is another source of gold maybe. I am not 100% sure how this mechanism is supposed to work. Does anyone know whether I will get the gold per turn or as a final lump sum? Of course, this is provided that the mission is a success which I can also not tell. 728 gold sure will help us a lot and hurt Germany a little.

[Kerberos]

There is another source of gold maybe. I am not 100% sure how this mechanism is supposed to work. Does anyone know whether I will get the gold per turn or as a final lump sum? Of course, this is provided that the mission is a success which I can also not tell. 728 gold sure will help us a lot and hurt Germany a little.

If it succeeds, its is immediate lump sum

Regarding English navy : there must still be lot of red boats floating around somewhere, as their cities on the other coast seem also to be chopped bare, and only so few ships are seen near German lands. Strange if more is not seen in few turns, i thought they would be sailing around the south tundra where they earlier chased Sulla's caravel and Chinese knight...