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TeddyKGB · August 21st, 2013, 21:52

@DMOC there is wrong screens on my last post. I'll put the right one later.
SIP Fishing 1st is an option, imo.

DMOC · August 21st, 2013, 22:12

Okay -- will look into Fishing first a little while.

I'm thinking that even though we're forced to tech Fishing if we settle in place, we're still going to have a long-term better capital than if we settled 1W (and we are going to be needing that 3H plains hill forest), so I think right now Settling in place with Hunting - AH - Mining - Fishing - BW - Agr - Pot should be considered the default, BUT if Fishing first has significant benefits we can definitely consider it. But I would pay some caution to it if fishing first will delay our first worker such that it appears after we have finished the food techs (and thus some wasted turns theoretically).

Again, I'll look into this shortly. So many options for us early in this game! smile

Stuff to do tomorrow:

-Write general overview of our strategy
-Update general info spreadsheet
-Scouting pattern decision
-Finish the turn lol

dick76 · August 22nd, 2013, 00:06

I saw where we descended and I think it could've been better. The river is very short and will not do useful work. Where settlers now seems most appropriate. Sorry I've changed the name but I walked out of another game, so I get it.

TeddyKGB

@Dhalphir

@dick76

@DMOC. (Following wall of text completely for u, bro smile

):

I'm absolutely agree with your to do list. Good planning and organizing is so important.

As I see it, fist thing to decide is which way to go (settling and techs) and end turn after.
Don't want to be in the situation our team is the one holding next turn for other guys, but I think you agree that our starting move is one of the most important throu the game. So we can appologize if we hold the turn, but we cant change our first city location later, so lets take as much time as we need to make that decision.

Once we decide our opening, we can discuss scouting. That would be much faster than current decision.
I did a fog read, post ss and save file above. Is it accurate, in your opinion?
Since we CRE we get our borders pop on T25/T26. Depends on where we settle.
Easy way to plan scouting, imo, would be just pop capital borders on the sim to 3rd ring and see from there.

As for C&D and nice excel docs we have 6-7 turns to do that, as long as we make F8-F9 screenshots in game regulary we can backtrack.

For general strategy overview, it tied with our opening. So here we go to the main question right now, imo.

Our opening and early development:
We have 3 options now.

SIP and go Hunt>AH and Worker>War>Set(T32) at size3
PH and go Hunt>AH and Worker>War>War>Set(T32) at size3
SIP and go Fishing first.

First and second options were discussed enough already, so let me say something about 3rd one.

I did several sims so far and I messed up some screenshots and planing (as you can in post#100), so I thought we could get Settler on T35. We cant, but this opening isn't about fastest second city possible, imo.
We have to see all the angles and potetial of our future position. And minuses as well.

So right now I suggest we go option 3, so we can get:

Wb first, after researching Fishing first obv
T28: Wb, Worker, Warrior done. All 3 main resources improved. Capital at size3 and start settler
T36: Settler done, city#2 on T36 on one of 4 tiles in capital's 3rd culture ring and share Pigs with capital (preroaded by worker first).

One of the micro plans set to complete settler with 10h overflow (I did move settler on fresh water PH, so no city#2 same turn on this ss, but we can do it). And (with center and deer +2hpt) 10h overflow will give us +3h bonus into worker#2. We need second worker asap, obv.

On T37 we could change queue(warrior) or tile(Pigs->PH) to start warrior or continue worker with EXP bonus while city#2 takes the Pigs.
Or just use 10h overflow on T36, if situation dictates, to build Warrior#2 on T37 (Pigs->PH), while city#2 take Pigs to grow faster. I have to do more simming to make it optimal, I guess.

You right,

Quote:fishing first will delay our first worker such that it appears after we have finished the food techs (and thus some wasted turns theoretically)

But this opening allow us to improve 3rd good resource (Pigs) just in time, on T28, when we grow to size3 and capital's output now equals 11 fpt / 2 hpt / 12 cpt. Most likely go in to settler. We can discuss your concerns once I do perfect micro for this opening. Guess our team need some more time to finish the turn.

For example, opening (2) at T28 contribute 8/3/10. And 7/4/10 on T30-31, when mine would be finished.
And we still had to invest 30h more into Wb.

Now lets get to the most important reason why the hell we want to go Fishing 1st:
Its for the beakers.
We start behind in tech tree and with 7 FIN civs its just awful. Our trait let us build chip Lib. Lets go for it as fast as possible, not forgeting about basic techs and security that will depend on exploring, contacts, diplomacy and C&D (to see if we are in danger some turns before 'friendly' 4*Chariots or 6*Axes on our borders).
If our research go Fish>Hunt>AH>Mining>BW (we can go ...>Mining>Pottery>BW in certain suitable situations as well) we'll get
BW on T43. I'm not sure we could shave a turn and get it on T42 but we can try with some micro.
And faster BW will give us hammers to expand, improve land and defence.
In my sim of PH start we can get BW on T42 or T41 maybe with crazy micro, but still need one more tech (Fish or Agri) before start Pottery.

There is some drawbacks to delay city#2 for 3-4 turns obv, but as I see it now, faster Pottery and eventually Writing is the right way for us to compete with 7 FIN civs on these settings.

Also, there are some changes could be made if we faced real danger.
Our timing on building queue wont be so perfect, but we can gamble with farmer gambit if you agreed.
I believe full diplo game is full of possibilites on that matter.

The reasons why we should, imo, plant city#2 in 3rd culture ring:

Shared Pigs
Settling on the turn Settler done (T36) with preroading by worker and get our city#2 just 3 turns later than in other two openings. You can say that we can plant city#2 in other openings on T32 as well, and you right - we can. We can discuss it later.
More overlap is a GOOD THING for city#2. You can WB in your sim how that hard overlap will looks like on certain turns (T36, after slavery, after 1st cottage). Both city share Pigs, most valubale resource we aware of so far. There is some hills and flat grass to share, so once we start building cottages in the shared area it could be worked by any city, while the other one works mines to produce units or whatever.
Planning city tiles till Industrial era nice, but our goal, as I see it, is different: we need strong economy by the time our UU will come. Strong production as well. And we simply will not have enough happiness to work many tiles in one city for a long time. Lets use hard overlap with city#2 and expand from there. In the long run, when expenses handled by economy, you always want your cities placed closer to profit from specialists, food corps or whatever. Just had to do some micro with tiles.
But here one more reason, and its kinda important. If you place city#2 in the 3rd culture ring, you'll get Total expanses equals 1 not 2 on that map untill city#2 grows to size2. And it could be one turn faster BW or Pottery.

Please, just run some sims of Fishing 1st, DMOC, to see the potential of this opening.

I'm stoping this post now. It's not complete, but I'm kinda wanna break right now. Thank you, if you read it all till this character.

It would be nice to chat with you, DMOC, so we can discuss current turns decisions faster. It's hard to me post in forums, cause I'm kinda OCD about posts on forums. And not so much in the chat.

tl;dr: I'd like our opening will be SIP and go fish first.
DMOC, you should try it in sims. It has potential.

DMOC

dick76 - thanks for checking out the game. Also, don't worry about the names. I'll switch to just DMOC instead of DMOC [Team EggHeads].

I'll check out the early fishing right now (just woke up lol

) and if you want we can do chat via Gmail soon.

We can chat via the dick76dmoc gmail account. Note that the name will say "Dick" but that's actually me.

DMOC

A quick timeline of important events + tile yields for the hunting first start (will get to fishing soon for comparison)

Turn 7 - Hunting finished
Turn 12 - First worker finished
Turn 15 - Deer finally produced, so yield is 6F 2H 2C
Turn 18 - Road on hill 4-4 of capital finished, capital grows to size 2 and has 9F 2H 2C
Turn 20 - AH in, capital starts settler
Turn 23 - Pasture finished, capital now has 12F 2H 2C as it switches back to warrior
Turn 24 - First warrior finishes, capital works another warrior to grow to size 3. Worker finishes roads on pigs
Turn 25 - Capital size 3 with 12F 5H 2C and starts a settler
Turn 26 - Worker goes on top of hill 4-7 of capital
Turn 27 - Mining finished, worker starts mine
Turn 30 - Worker finishes mine so capital is at 13F 5H 2C
Turn 32 - Settler produced, capital switches back to warrior
Turn 33 - Fishing finished, capital switches to workboat. Also, ideally, our second city is founded, and we can have theoretically 15 commerce at this point (if a lake tile is worked), but will have to lower the slider
Turn 37 - Second warrior done (from second city) and workboat finished. Now capital grows to size 5 asap. On this turn it's still size 3 but with 17F 2H 4C, much better.
Turn 39 - Capital at size 4, can work grass forest to reach size 5 in 2 turns
Turn 40 - Our third warrior is finished. Capital need 1 more turn to grow so we can invest cash into stonehenge since Team Orgynized will likely build it early. Note: if we switch to a 1F 3H mine we can get exactly size 5 next turn with 0 overflow, but with more hammers into settler
Turn 41 - Capital at size 5, works on settler.
Turn 45 - Second worker produced (from second city)
Turn 46 - BW done
Turn 47 - Settler done in capital. Note that our sustainable research is at around 12 beakers per turn.

Note that this assumes our second city is to the west. If it's to the north, things change.
Turn 46 - Bronze Working researched (likely turn 45 though with the known civ tech bonus)

Now the fishing start:

Turn 7 - Fishing done, switch to workboat. Note that if we work the deer from the start, we actually can get fishing 1 turn earlier but we don't get expansive worker bonus (did you do this?) EDIT: No, this means our first worker is ready on turn 20 ... don't like this idea
Turn 13 - Hunting done
Turn 15 - Wb done back to worker, and work the fish. Capital has 7F 1H 3C.
Turn 19 - Worker done, back to warrior to grow city (no hammer overflow though)
Turn 24 - Capital size 2 and has 11F 2H 4C
Turn 25 - AH in, worker goes to pasture pigs this turn (and can start this turn due to roads)
Turn 27 - Capital size 3 and works 3H tile to finish warrior this turn (we need this before settler), so it has 11F 5H 4C.
Turn 28 - Pasture finishes, warrior finishes, capital starts settler and works pigs so now we have 17F 2H 4C.
Turn 31 - Mining finishes and worker will start mining one of the hills. He will need to spend a turn pre-roading a tile, possibly the hill 4-4 of capital to facilitate movement westward
Turn 35 - Road on mine finished, so settler can move quickly next turn and the second city could work the mine.
Turn 36 - Settler produced.
Turn 39 - Second warrior produced (from capital). Ideally, we'll have one worker in production and another warrior, and then a settler after that.
Turn 43/44 - Bronze Working done. Second worker can be done on turn 43 if we produce it from the capital.

Hm ... tough to say but I'm worried about the slow expansion of the fishing start, but being nonfinancial we do need to get tech rate up... We can talk in Gchat if you want. The main thing is, how much does getting bronze working 2 turns earlier help us if our second city is delayed by about 4 turns?

Edit also scouting move! I propose going 1-2, so that we get on the southern hill. Reason is we want to explore a little bit of the south before doubling back to the north, and our warriors that we build should be going directly to the city sites, not scouting.

Edit again: Since we seem to be in agreement on settling in place no matter what, do you want me to settle the city right now anyway (will reveal about 1 or 2 tiles), but just not click on any tech? We can bank beakers but must decide which tech to do by turn 4.

DMOC

edit: Okay, I need to focus on a few other things at the moment, but I will try to be around my computer at around 10 PM to 11 PM EST (GMT -5). When can you make it? I'll be using the dick76dmoc email

TeddyKGB · August 22nd, 2013, 18:54

@DMOC Sorry, wasnt able to chat earlier. I'm online now untill we decide something and end the turn after chat.

TeddyKGB

Some other things to consider in no particular order.

Scouting, contacts, security.

Here two pictures what our borders and visibility will look like on T25-T26.
I did some fog read but it's not 100%. And ofc visibility would be different with hills, forests etc change it.

As you can see, SIP provide us with a pretty good view to the east.

Maybe someone on our team could suggest how we should move scout next?

Early strategic resource.

Now its a total speculation on my part but what if we discover Horses near?
At what turn it should be improved?

If it in the capital BFC we want it ASAP, obv.
If it in the 3rd ring we can improve it and plant city#2 somewhere else.
If it close enough we can consider plant city#2 there.

Could we go Pottery before BW if horses connected from security point of view?
Could we afford delay production via Chop/Whip and go cottages early?

Worker on the busy schedule, we should consider go second worker before settler.
In fact, we should consider it regardless, but there is several turns to decide once we choose our opening.

***EDIT this post later and add some more***

DMOC · August 22nd, 2013, 20:08

To soon to decide on Pottery vs Bronze Working, but we definitely want to decide on Hunting vs Fishing. I'm on the gmail account now

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