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Is that character a variant? (I just love getting asked that in channel.) - Charis |
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The Dark arts - C&D Master Thread
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Would someone else - i.e. not me - be willing to do this while kjn is traveling? We are fine for the current turn (T119), but we should be getting a turn roll sometimes on Friday. I really do not want to take on any more duties for this game than I currently have on my plate.
Continuing to go through the teams, this time the Germans (better pick the low-hanging fruits):
On T114, they grew one pop and received 4 score from land. On T115 they researched an ancient tech in 10t, which I've noted down as Masonry for now, and also probably received 7 score from land. T116 they grew 2 pop, up to 43, on T117 they grew 3, and on T118 they grew 2 pop and received 2 score from land. On T118 they also settled two cities, Warendorf and Westheim, claiming 7 land tiles, bringing them to 50 pop. On T119 they grew another 2 pop, and on T120 they grew 1 pop and received 3 land score. They were up to 53 pop now. Then they performed a 3-pop whip, something I think they did in Wesselburen, and a one-pop whip in Weil der Stadt (the latter most probably of a granary), and grew one pop back on T121, taking them to 50 pop. This also means that their unknown city of Wanzleben is size 5, despite being founded as late as T109. Possible with a chopped granary and a good food tile to grow on from the start, but still slick city management. However, it's still inland (claimed 9 tiles when founded), otherwise I'd have guessed at a coastal location with a fish netted on the turn of founding.
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Still working through things. Finished with WPC, the Spanish, the Germans, and likely CFC up to T121 (ie the current turn).
WPC is revolting to Hinduism, so hopefully they will start spreading the religion around actively in coming turns. CFC are currently up to 87 pop, and I'm fairly sure they researched a medieval tech this turn in 6t (or they received a bunch of land points ahead of schedule and researched a classical tech). I note down Civil Service for now, since that's the only medieval tech we know, and we only receive known tech bonuses for Music (CivFr) and Theology (CivPlayers). CFC researched CS in six turns, as we did, but they burned through 90g on these turns (started with 120, ended with 30), while we gained 85 (started with 93, ended with 178). Ie, our economy was capable of generating 1170b and 85g in 6t, while their economy generated 1142b and -90g in 6t. (Note that I do not account for overflow here.)
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Tried to work through all the team up to this turn (T122), but I'm fairly sure some pop and land values are off. However, the tech counts should be accurate for most teams, and the score breakdown for those teams where we have good visibility should be good for all score elements.
C&D spread sheet The highlights, and I'm fairly sure about this: I think WPC currently has 41 pop in 10 cities. Their last tech was at T100, Masonry, and I think they're slowly going towards Construction. Believe it or not, but they're not the rival worst in GNP, though they do come close. They have 12 ancient techs and 1 classical (Mathematics). The Spanish have 32 pop in 7 cities, and are the rival worst in population, and in GNP since T110 or so. They do have 10 ancient techs and 2 classical (Mathematics and Construction), but they haven't had a new tech since T102. They have finished several colosseums in their older cities, and has Christianity in their capital (but haven't revolted). Apolyton is one of the teams with the most uncertainty. They have at least 50 pop in 12 cities, but they might have up to 60. They are by far the strongest researcher in the game currently, with 16 ancient, 6 classical, and 3 medieval techs (Paper, Civil Service, and Philosophy). Thanks to them knowing Alphabet, we have an exact tally of their techs. The Germans have 52 pop in 12 cities. They have 13 ancient techs, and I think they researched their most recent one this turn (noted as Polytheism in 7t for now). They are currently building lots of infrastructure. Wesselburen just finished a library in Wesselburen, and their other city with a lighthouse - Wien - currently has no hammers invested (was 27 last turn). I thus think the Germans won't be able to challenge us in the GLH race. I will continue to watch their cities with lighthouses, though, they do have several forests that they can chop. Amusingly, Christianity just spread to Worms as well. Lets see if they convert to Christianity or Hinduism, but I think we should be ready to give them another missionary or two in a marble deal. CivFr is another team that have a lot of uncertainty. I think they have circa 80 pop in 11 cities. They have 16 ancient, 7 classical, and 1 medieval tech (Music). They are the only team with marble connected right now, and has used that to grab the Mausoleum of Maussollos, the Temple of Artemis, and the Parthenon. They are in Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, and Slavery. Their main drawback is the lack of religion, maybe not for happiness but for the OR bonus. CivPlayers has circa 48 pop in 10 cities. They have 17 ancient techs, 5 classical techs, and 1 medieval tech (Theology on T104). Their most recent tech was on T114, tentatively noted as Calendar. They built the Oracle and picked up Code of Laws with it, and also built the Apostolic Palace in Tenochtitlan on T111. They are very much focusing on infrastructure, with sacrificial altars, buddhist monasteries and temples, barracks, and granaries in every mature city. CFC has 90 pop in 12 cities, but has cut their food output sharply by hiring lots and lots of specialists after adopting Caste System. They know 16 ancient, 6 classical, and 1 medieval tech (Civil Service). They have just finished their first courthouse (in Lana), and of course has the Pyramids. They are in Representation, Bureaucracy, and Caste System. Univers is the other major unknown here. They have between 60 and 70 pop in 12 cities. They know 17 ancient and 4 classical techs. I think they have just built Moai statues in one of their cities - they had score increases of 21 and 24 on T120 and T121, and I doubt they one-turned a classical tech.
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Gah. The APTmod data extracts fine still, except that roughly every fourth culture value for each civ is one too low. And it's on different turns for different teams
 BTW, I thought CFC popped the borders of Bono by forcing an artist, and it seems the culture deltas support that (no religion in city, and sometimes CFC's culture per turn drops from my eyeballing). We need to keep track of the number of worked tiles in CFC's stupid city, since they can run run artist specialists there. Basically, we have to assume that every civizen in the city that doesn't work a tile is an artist. At size 5, working rice and the farm, the city can support three artists. Assume the city grew to 4 on T120, and it works rice, farm, and two plains wines, giving it +6F and 4H. The city doesn't have a granary, and has 35H invested into a build. Growth to 5 requires 30F without a granary, so 5t to grow. So starting T125 they can run 3 artists in the city, generating 13 culture per turn (with Judaism). The city expanded borders on T115, so will have 20 culture on T125. Ie, the city can hit 100 culture and third ring as early as T130.
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Analysing the T122 APTmod data - Culture
Back in December Waterbat made a web tool that massaged the underlying data out from the graphs that APTmod presented. I haven't made structured use of this info since then (though it's been very helpful for all sorts of purposes). Now, lets analyse the game up to T122, and with the values for two more teams. What I've done is created a spread sheet with all the APTmod figures, and some extra data (like amount of cities and pop for each team), and then extract various figures and numbers. In this case, what is shown is the double delta of culture production, ie the change in culture production that happens on a given turn. Turn numbers listed are where the culture is produced, ie if CivFr (being CRE) founds a city on T27 the change in culture production is also recorded as T27. Lets start with ourselves. RB T0: +2 - settled AO T46: -2 - revolt to Slavery T47: +2 - government re-established T50: +5 - found Hinduism T53: +1 - Hinduism in FP T54: +1 - Stonehenge monument in FP T55: +10 - Stonehenge; monuments in AO and MM T57: +1 - settle HF T69: -20 - revolt to Hinduism T70: +21 - government re-established; settle GM T71: +1 - settled TH T73: +2 - library in TH T79: +1 - Hinduism in HF T80: +1 - settled ST T82: +8 - Stonehenge doubles T83: +3 - settled FF; library in AO T84: +4 - Hindu shrine T85: +3 - library in MM T88: +1 - Hindusim in TH T90: +1 - Hinduism in FF T91: +1 - settled BbB T95: +1 - Hinduism in BbB T98: +2 - captured Starfall, settled TC T99: -50 - revolt to Hinduism T100: +50 - government re-established T101: +2 - Hinduism in AO, TC T103: +1 - Hinduism in ST T104: +1 - Hinduism in Starfall T105: +6 - Hanging Gardens T106: +2 - Great Wall T107: +1 - Hinduism in EGD T108: +2 - settled Ditchdigger, Hinduism in GM T111: +3 - settled Simple Life, TH library doubles T112: +1 - Hinduism in SL T113: +1 - Hinduism in Ditchdigger T114: +12 - SoZ, library in GM T115: +4 - Moai statues T117: +1 - settled CE T118: +8 - Shwedagon Paya T120: +2 - library in Starfall T121: +7 - settled FR, library in ST, artist in FR WPC T1: +2 - settle Well Placed City T58: -2 - revolt to Slavery T59: +2 - government re-established T71: +1 - 1st totem pole T73: +1 - 2nd totem pole T74: +1 - 3rd totem pole T97: +1 - 4th totem pole? T98: +1 - 5th totem pole? T108: +1 - totem pole in Fields of Color T109: +1 - 1st totem pole doubled? T110: +1 - 2nd totem pole doubled? T112: +3 - 3rd totem pole doubled?, 1st library? T113: +2 - Hinduism in Well Placed City, 7th totem pole? T116: +2 - Hinduism in Hill to the Sky, 8th totem pole? T121: -17 - revolt to Hinduism Note that WPC is the rival worst in culture, despite - or perhaps because - they have pushed very hard for totem poles. I think their UU has caused them to put less priority on libraries. Spanish T0: +2 - settled Ulundi T48: -2 - revolt to Slavery T49: +2 - government re-established T65: +1 - 1st monument T73: +1 - 2nd monument T84: +1 - 3rd monument T90: +3 - library? T91: +2 - library? T92: +1 - library? T100: +1 - 1st monument doubled T101: +1 - monument/religion? T110: +1 - 2nd monument doubled T117: +1 - Christianity in Ulundi T120: +2 - library They performed 2-pop whips on T89 and T90, so that fits with libraries on T90 and T91. Germans T1: +2 - settle Webringen T55: +4 - 2 terraces (Webringen and Wittenberge) T56: +2 - 3rd terrace (Worms) T60: +2 - 4th terrace (Wismar) T71: +2 - 5th terrace (Wien, founded T68) T82: +4 - 1st and 2nd terrace doubled T84: +2 - 3rd terrace doubled T90: +2 - 4th terrace doubled T93: +2 - 6th terrace (Wilhelmshaven) T103: +2 - library/terrace T108: +2 - terrace (Wasserburg) T110: +2 - 5th terrace doubled T111: +2 - library/terrace T113: +2 - library/terrace T116: +1 - religion (Christianity in Worms?) T119: +2 - library/terrace T120: +2 - library/terrace T121: +6 - 3 libraries/terraces The Germans have 5 libraries and 10 terraces (a terrace in every city but their two newest ones settled T118, Warendorf and Westheim.) CivFr We don't have graphs on CivFr, but they have been the rival best in culture since game start. Note that I sometimes move 1 culture delta from a turn to the turn after - they had a more +1's before I adjusted things. Of special interest is T111, when they generated 6 more culture than the turn before. Not sure what is up with that. Theories and speculation welcome. T0: +4 - settled Miss Click T27: +2 - settled Miss Souris T43: +2 - settled Saint Emilion T48: -8 - revolt to Slavery T49: +10 - settled La Villageoise, government re-establshed T63: +2 - 1st library T64: +2 - 2nd library T70: +2 - 3rd library T71: +2 - settled Tirecul T74: -18 - revolt to HR T75: +18 - government re-established T78: +2 - settled Château d'Yquem T84: +4 - academy (GS born this turn) T90: +2 - settled Pisse-Dru T95: +2 - 1st library doubled T96: +2 - settled Le Bois des Mer T97: +2 - 2nd library doubled T103: +4 - settled Zlatan, library T106: +11 - Mausoleum of Maussollos, religion? T107: +2 - 3rd library doubled T110: +1 - religion? T111: +6 - 3 libraries/monasteries? Moai? T113: +10 - Temple of Artemis, settled Château Margaux T115: +1 - religion? T120: +2 - settled Nom Svp CFC T0: +2 - Settled Indira T68: +5 - found Judaism (Terasvin) T69: +1 - monument (Mantra) T76: +1 - 2nd religion T83: +2 - library (Indira) T86: +1 - 3rd religion T87: +2 - 1st temple, 4th religion T89: +1 - 2nd temple T90: +2 - 2 temples (Lana, Lakshmi) T91: +1 - 5th religion T96: +1 - 5th temple T101: +4 - academy (Indira) T105: +4 - 2 libraries (Mantra, Lana) T106: +3 - monument doubled, 6th & 7th religion T112: +6 - Pyramids T116: +9 - 2*artist, 8th religion T117: -4 - fire one artist T118: -1 - not compensated error T119: +9 - 2*artist T120: -8 - fire two artists T121: -4 - fire one artist Next up to tackle is the power figures, but those will be quite a chore. I'm going to look into putting my current data up in Google docs so more people than me can take a stab at it.
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Turn 123 notes
Not much happening this turn, except for what has already been said in the turn discussion thread. WPC likely grew 3 pop (2 visible on the map) and now have 44 total. Apolyton built the Colossus (so we know they have at least one forge) and may have grown up to 4 pop, or it's (more likely) a mix of pop and land. The Germans grew a single pop point, in Wismar. They should have 53 total, including their mystery city. CivFr likely received 6 land score, since the rival best in population was unchanged, and they settled a city on T103. CivPlayers researched CS and grew a pop point in Texcoco. I think they have 49 pop total. They also immediately adopted Bureaucracy. CFC received 9 land score - none of their cities grew this turn, and they claimed 8 tiles on T103 with their stupid city (though they lost control of one of them when Starfall expanded borders, so that isn't scored), and the remainder must thus come from more land points. Univers received a mix of land and pop points, but they're quite hard to track right now. We also lost graphs on them this turn, but they were the rival best in food last turn, with a production of 211. Their food production has climbed steadily since T114 (178 to 211), so I think they have grown a fair bit of pop. They might have as many as 75, by going for the food stat increases only. Total rival power increased with 11000, and that includes the loss of the German chariot, so an increase of 15000 and a loss of 4000, so no military buildup that goes on. On the money and GNP front, the only real changes were that CivPlayers lost 50g as the turn rolled (down to 30), and CFC gained 100 (up to 120). If Apolyton has an external funder, the only real possibility is CFC. I think most teams are currently stockpiling money or running breakeven research. On the diplomatic front, I found the following trades: CFC sends wine to WPC CivFr sends sugar to Apolyton Univers sends stone to Apolyton, for 7gpt Apolyton sends wheat to CivFr I think the stone-for-gold deal is so Apolyton can get Moai built quickly, but the wheat-for-sugar deal is interesting. If we notice that tension rises between Apolyton and CivFr, then we can give Apolyton gems or spices on the condition that they stop sending wheat to CivFr. With their very large cities, CivFr probably has run into trouble with health.
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The production tracking languished for quite a while, but I've started it up again from T121 (last earlier turn was T110, and that was after a dry spell from T104).
WPC doesn't have anything special being built, as far as I judge. Seems to be infrastructure builds with modest hammer inputs. The exception is Hill to the Sky, which goes 30->52->63. Maybe overflow from build swapping? The Spanish are similar. Ulmgungundlovu just finished a colosseum. The city of Bulawayo has non-trivial production, and put 17H into its build (25->42H). CFC are strange. Most of their cities hasn't shown any invested hammers for T122 or T123, so I think they might be running wealth builds in most of their cities. Anyway, most builds are in the 9-60 range, and the top value is 87 (in Worms). Of course, we have very little visibility on the cities of Univers, Apolyton, and CivFr, who should be our main rivals to the GLH and later Taj Mahal.
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The Germans 2-pop whipped the city of Wismar. It went from 36 to 96 hammers, so almost certainly a library whip (the city has a terrace, a barracks, and a lighthouse).
Ie, if the Germans are going for the GLH, they won't be able to get it in Wismar.
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