That's ridiculously good. I really hope that the grass oasis is not a mapmaker mistake. By any means, let's settle there ASAP. Can think of it as a riverside rice (+1c) that comes pre-improved - aka, 4+ free worker turns! Heck, the second city can even build it's own worker if we really wanted to do so (normally a very poor play).
We still might want to go worker->settler, but considering that the two best tiles (and even the cow) at the second city are better than anything at the cap besides the already-improved wheat, my instinct is that settler will be better.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Better analogy: a coastal fish with the workboat there from the cap on the settling turn, except the cap spends exactly no production on it. Geez that's good.
Some strategy thoughts:
Medium term: Capital at size 4 pumping out 5 turn settlers working an fp cottage with the second city at size 3 pumping out 5 turn workers. Maybe occasional pause to grow both cities onto more cottages/grow-whip because even pre-granary, a 1pop whip turns 24-28food into 30h and the math gets much better post-granary. We might not end up whipping the capital a ton (not sure if post-granary a ten-turn whipping cycle allows us to still get two settlers while dropping a handful of production per cycle elsewhere, or if it slows down the settlers too much to be constant), but we should probably whip the second city a lot until we are ready to grow really tall.
Honestly, I'm not even sure that our third, etc. cities will be able to supply military quickly enough to keep up with that. Great to have a fast worker pump to pair with our fast settler capital.
Eventually libraries (a good bulb turns scientists into something like 0/0/15 tiles, for example) and more, but I envision these two cities, especially the capital, acting almost entirely as expansion pumps until we can't expand any more.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(October 19th, 2019, 19:29)AutomatedTeller Wrote: Bug Report: you cannot see over grass oasis tiles. See previous post - my scout is on a hill, next to a grass oasis, and I cannot see onto the til beyond it, and I should be able to.
Should you? An oasis is in the same class as forest/jungle. I feel like it blocks view on deserts too.
Ok, this is interesting. I had wondered that, cause I wasn't sure, so I had checked it and I was able to see over. (this isn't base bts, but rather the BUFFY mod, but that is supposed to have BUG as part of it, too)
When you replied, I checked it again, and I could not. I checked in a different place and I could.
Note that I can see over 1 of those grass oases, but not both. I will note that the one I can;t see over, the warrior was not originally on a hill - I made that tile a hill in world builder. this might be an issue in Base BTS in some cases, is what I'm saying.
I don't think this is very important and I doubt I would have even noticed it, had I not been looking for issues...
(October 19th, 2019, 20:56)Merovech Wrote: Better analogy: a coastal fish with the workboat there from the cap on the settling turn, except the cap spends exactly no production on it. Geez that's good.
yeah. It's really quite amazing. I'm not sure what type of map script can give us one, but the sugar in a forest isn't standard, either.
Thinking some more about the whipping and a 10turn 2x [worker/settler] set up that I think that we will want to run a few times through:
A 1pop whip gets us 45% of a settler and 50% of a worker. So, 2.25turns of production in the capital and 2.5 turns production in the second city. In both, post-granary, we should be able to pretty consistently grow back that size in 2turns.
The extra production that we gain is only a few hammers per cycle, not enough to complete any units before decay sets in, but definitely a positive - ex. can drop into Stonehenge in the capital and maybe a monastery in the second city (maybe a lucky spread to the cap, too). However, this also leads to 2 extra turns working the second floodplain (or the clams) in the capital, granting us a few extra commerce per cycle. We have the happiness, so it's almost certainly worth it, even if the overall benefit is fairly marginal compared to not whipping relative to how much whipping is usually worth.
I have not yet considered multi-pop whipping. It's been weakened in RtR compared to base, but can still be worth considering. But I don't suspect that it will yield better results for these two cities while making foodhammer units.
I have also not considered that, if we do land buddhism, we will want to spread it to the new cities, and so the second city will probably need to spend a few turns making at least 1 missionary.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Well, I guess the numbers say a 1 pop whip gives us a bonus, at least in the cap, for a settler.
a 1 pop settler whip is 30 hammers * 1.5 = 45 hammers.
That takes a PH hill, which is 40 hammers * 1.5 = 60 hammers, but a PH costs 2 food, so that's a total of 40 foodhammers.
A 2 pop whip (in the cap) wouldn't make sense - you'd get 50 hammers * 1.5 - 75, but lose 80 for a loss of 5.
For a worker, a 1 or 2 pop whip gives us the same +10 hammers, because there's no bonus to the hammers.
We'd have to sim it to see how it affects us - if we 1 pop whip the cap, there is that 2 turn period where we don't build a settler as we grow, which might be an issue, I'm not sure.
That might be ok, too. the last thing we want is to out grow our ability to keep neighbors from sniping our cities. Though, I suppose we could build settlers and not settle them, if we choose.
(October 19th, 2019, 23:31)AutomatedTeller Wrote: Well, I guess the numbers say a 1 pop whip gives us a bonus, at least in the cap, for a settler.
a 1 pop settler whip is 30 hammers * 1.5 = 45 hammers.
That takes a PH hill, which is 40 hammers * 1.5 = 60 hammers, but a PH costs 2 food, so that's a total of 40 foodhammers.
I don't follow why a whip takes away a plains hill for 10 turns. That should only matter if the whip unhappiness matters, right? Otherwise it is just the ~2 turns regrowing. How high is the happy cap in CarTalk? I thought that it would be 5 pre-resources, so enough to be size 4 + 1whip unhappy (with quecha for mp)
I might be missing something obvious, here.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(October 19th, 2019, 23:31)AutomatedTeller Wrote: Well, I guess the numbers say a 1 pop whip gives us a bonus, at least in the cap, for a settler.
a 1 pop settler whip is 30 hammers * 1.5 = 45 hammers.
That takes a PH hill, which is 40 hammers * 1.5 = 60 hammers, but a PH costs 2 food, so that's a total of 40 foodhammers.
I don't follow why a whip takes away a plains hill for 10 turns. That should only matter if the whip unhappiness matters, right? Otherwise it is just the ~2 turns regrowing. How high is the happy cap in CarTalk? I thought that it would be 5 pre-resources, so enough to be size 4 + 1whip unhappy (with quecha for mp)
I might be missing something obvious, here.
Well, that is true, in which case there's no real downside to it, other than we aren't going to be able to work 2 cottages. That's not a big deal for awhile.
So (and this isn't a plan, but some thoughts), we might go settler->settler->granary that gets whipped->stonehenge till size 4->settlers?
(October 19th, 2019, 21:03)AutomatedTeller Wrote: Note that I can see over 1 of those grass oases, but not both. I will note that the one I can;t see over, the warrior was not originally on a hill - I made that tile a hill in world builder. this might be an issue in Base BTS in some cases, is what I'm saying.
I don't think that's right. Look again at your picture: In the oasis that you "can" see over, all the tiles on the far side are in the fog of war (i.e. in shadow, though not in darkness). I think what happened is that you first put the warrior on the hill (whence it could see those tiles over the grassland) then added the Oasis, blocking the warrior's view of those tiles again but leaving them revealed because you had seen them before the oasis magically appeared. (The game does remain active and update vision while you're changing tiles around in WB.) With the other Warrior, you must have placed the oasis before placing the hill under the Warrior, so there was never a moment when the Warrior was on a hill to see over the grassland without an oasis to block its view, and the tiles stayed completely unrevealed.
In any case, even though the graphics make it look weird, oases have always blocked both vision and movement exactly as though they were forests or jungles. (Well, at least since BtS; I never played Vanilla or Warlords.)
![[Image: seeingoveroasis.JPG]](https://dl.dropbox.com/s/cbmyc3miwwmh0sp/seeingoveroasis.JPG)
