[Spoilers] Louis XIV of Babylon

[Sciz]

Not sure why the city planners in Insomnia (I assume that was the city?) built the Hanging Gardens right on top of some farms though

[SleepingMoogle]

It was REM State actually. Insomnia will keep most of its forests for future projects.

Anyway, now that the Gardens are ours it's time to focus on the future again. Having 7 cities (and founding the 8th next turn) means we're struggling with maintenance. It's floating around 30-40% right now, which means that we're limping our way towards Sailing right now. But by far the most pressing issue is happiness. Having only one active resource (Gold) sucks. Besides Gold, we have Wines (not active until Monarchy), Furs in the north (needs another city plant), and Silver in a cold, dark corner. There's also Whales, but it will take some time to research Optics.

With that in mind, getting to Monarchy once we get Sailing for coastal trade routes and Lighthouses seems the best idea. Probably Sailing -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Monarchy. At Monarchy, revolt into Hereditary Rule to get the happiness boost from stationed units and a bonus from the Wines.

There's really little else that we can do for now. Other Civs have about the same happiness resources that we do, and we don't have any doubles to trade for them. Health doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone either, but perhaps another arrangement can be made.

I suppose that we can hope for a lucky religion spread. Trade routes are open between us and plako (Judaism) and luddite (Hinduism). Aldain (Buddhism) may not be too far away from being linked up either. The question is if I do get lucky, how will I go about spreading it around? Meditation for Monasteries? Revolt into OR? Build Temples for more happiness? This seems to be too much based on luck, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed anyhow.


Anyway, some overview pictures for this turn along with tentative builds:

The north:

I don't really want to settle sub-par positions, but this happiness crunch might just make me to.

Nap: Currently throwing some hammers into barracks. It will switch to a Worker and 2-pop whip it once the current whip anger wears off. Once the barracks are finished, it will start training some units for HR happiness purposes.

Delta Wave: Just whipped out a Workboat to hook up the fish, and a chop is incoming for a second one for the crabs. Then it's back to a Granary while growing.



The center:

Insomnia: Workers/Settlers and units, nuff said.

REM State: Suffering unhappiness from the HG pop increase (did I mention having a happiness crunch already? ). Currently building barracks to start training units later on. In between I may build a Worker or two as well.

The south:

Dream: Just 1-pop whipped a Worker and started on a Barracks because it doesn't really have anything else to build. I'd like to start assigning Scientists here, but (again) don't really have the happiness for it.

Slow-wave: Will whip its Granary soon and overflow in a Library which will get a chop to speed it along. After that it'll focus on cottages too.

Hangover: Starts slow, with both the food resources out of reach until the borders expand. At that point I'll whip the Workboat and start setting up the city.

City 8 will be founded south of the Corn next turn, and will start on a Granary.


At the moment I'm trying to hammer out a rough border agreement with Rego. Basically get as much terrain as possible without being obvious about it.

[SleepingMoogle]

I just played turn 86 and 87 (weekend turns seem to be played very quickly ), and we're now up to 8 cities with Sailing coming in at the end of the turn. For now though, a bit of reporting on the discussions between Rego and me.

We have been in discussion on that clam site since Rego mentioned intending to settle there, and how to fit that into a larger border agreement. He sent me this yesterday:

Okay,

I took a shot in game this evening

I have marked what I have decided to call the "Five Fingers" - the 5 narrow passes between our lands, and those of Adlain and mackoti (and further east locke, nakor, etc). From south to north

* Spice and Rice Finger
* Southern Ivory Finger
* Northern Ivory Finger
* Copper Finger
* Bacon Finger

I've also marked the clam city we were discussing earlier today (the actual clam tile is just offscreen to the west). In my mind (and I haven't confirmed this with sunrise but it seems reasonable), the southern 2 are definitely in Zulu sphere of influence, and the northern 2 are definitely Somnian (Somnusian? Sleeper? :-) ). It's the middle one that is up for discussion.

Would you agree with that? It's hard to decide exactly where the borders might lie, without taking some time to think of where the cities might go but that seems like a decent framework to me, if you agree.

And obviously you can see the borders of Adlain and Mackoti, at least as far as I know them. The Adlain's borders 2S sign though was placed based on his description probably 20 turns ago, so he may have moved northwards since then. Of course, he does only have 4 cities (I like to point that out as he's the only one with fewer than us!) :-D

Depending on what you're able to negotiate with mackoti, the tile 1N of the gem tile my warrior is standing on looks like a pretty solid chokepoint against him, which would allow a pretty defensible border city with Adlain maybe on the hill tile 1NW of the furs? Then maybe fish / copper? Dunno that's probably planning too far ahead, but hopefully this will give you some more map knowledge for us to be able to work something out, and maybe this will give you a leg up on negotiations with adlain / mackoti

Talk to you soon!

dan.
regoarrarr
zulu

My first reaction was something along the lines of WTF?!? I got dragged into a pub and wasn't really in a state afterwards that made writing a response a wise idea, so I sent him one this morning:

Greetings Dan,

I have been trying to formulate a response to your message, and as you are a straight talker I'll just give it to you bluntly: I think you're overreaching yourself. Even if the area you're trying to claim is not within my zone of influence (and this is debateable), I would certainly consider it Adlain's before you. It feels like you are trying to grab as much land as possible and settle your backline (which you repeatedly mentioned is mostly blocked off from other Civs) afterwards. This may be a solid strategy to stake a claim, but it does have the potential to piss off your neighbours.

You made a point of noting that your second city is about as far removed from the clam site as my sixth, but that really either means it was settled a long way from your capital, or you started further south than I did. Based on what I've seen and heard, it is a fair assumption that everyone started at more or less equal distances from each other, with relatively the same amount of land around their starting position. My best guess is therefore that the amount of backline property you can still settle is sizeable and most of your expansion has been headed south and southeast.

While I am willing to concede the clam site as part of the border agreement, I am convinced that at this point I'm not receiving an equal share. You even objected to me settling a city to its east, in a location that I definitely consider to be in my zone of influence. I like this to work out between us, and I can see the benefit of you settling in what is basically Adlain's land, but right now I'm not satisfied. So my question to you is, if I'm to agree to let you settle further southeast than that clam location, what will you offer me in return?

-SleepingMoogle

Basically, I don't want him expanding further towards me unless he can offer something equally valuable in return. Happiness resources would be a start, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a long-term alliance against either Adlain or Mackoti down the line to expand further.

[SleepingMoogle]

Hi SleepingMoogle,

First of all, I wanted to thank you for the candidness of your response. I find in situations like this (with slight disagreements) it's all too easy to just pretend to agree while secretly plotting to do the other guy in. Personally I feel like it's better all around to try and work out a compromise, and I'm glad to see that you apparently feel the same way.

As for whether the area to the SE of the clam is Adlain's rather than ours, it may very well be. But that's our problem, right? It's like me conceding the far east to you - mackoti may have something to say about that after all!

As for you settling east of the clams site, I don't think I said that (though maybe I did). I do remember expressing concerns about you settling directly east of it just due to your Creative culture. But even a city say 1NE of the rice (equal latitude to the clam site) controls the 4th and 5th "finger" (and maybe the 3rd) which is what I mentioned in my email as being in your zone of control, right?

So I hear what you're saying about not getting an equal share, and I don't want that. I don't want to "sign" some sort of unequal agreement that's only going to cause you to resent us later on. "Our Open Borders have brought our people close together", after all ;-). So what would you feel like is fair? Do you feel like you should go all the way through all 5 fingers to the coast? Again, Adlain's going to have to get involved at some point, but if that's truly what you feel, I'd rather know that now, you know?

I'll be available off and on for the next few hours if you are

dan.
regoarrarr
zulu

Well it seems like we're getting things rolling at least. If our Civs are to be in bed together, I would think something along the following lines:

*I concede the clams site to you. In return, you allow me to settle a city east of it, with the understanding that I will make a reasonable effort not to culturally crush the city. If you, say, build a library to expand the border, it will counter my Creative trait and I will avoid placing any other cultural buildings unless needed (in which case I will let you know in advance).

*I would like to directly control the northern Ivory resource in the screenshot, probably through a city placed to its northeast (maybe 2N of the Horses). This probably means the middle finger will fall under my control; however in return I won't contest you settling the lower two fingers and claiming the southern Ivory resource.

*We sign a long-term NAP and pledge to form a united front against Adlain in case he objects to our expansion. (this agreement is of course to be kept secret unless we both agree revealing it makes sense). Specifics can be hammered out further, but could be up to and including aiding each other military should it come to war. In the meantime we keep open borders so you will benefit from the added trade routes, and can discuss other, similar arrangements down the line.

Hoping that sounds like a good starting point at least. :-)

Pleasant dreams,
-SleepingMoogle
Patriarch of the first tribe of Somnus

Let's see if that resonates with Rego and Sunrise. Keeping in with the candidness so far, I figured I might as well just state what I want out of this. But I think they will be at least fairly receptive to the offer.

[SleepingMoogle]

Things are definitely getting interesting and fast. I've been slacking a bit on the updates here.. recent changes in working hours and the accompanying sleeping pattern changes always sap my energy for a few days. I'll see about doing a nice picture update tomorrow.

For now, a continuation of the talks with Rego.

Okay I think that we are definitely moving in the same direction. I particularly like where you were going about the longer-term arrangement vs. Adlain.

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I don't object in principle to you settling a city site to the east of our clams city, nor to a site somewhere around 2N of the horse tile (controlling the Northern Ivory finger).

Hopefully you are around now or soon, because I wanted to clarify that you were okay with our settling the clams tile. I have been told that we are last to play this current turn, and before I play this set of 2 turns, I need to know if you're okay with it. I'd have to check in-game on exactly where things are, but I know that we have a settler in production or on the move, and before I play these turns, I need to know if it needs to go east to the clams site or somewhere else.

It sounded like we were far enough along in the discussions that you were okay with it, but I didn't want to mis-interpret what you said, and derail the whole discussion over it

Let me know

dan.
regoarrarr
zulu

Settling the Clam site is at this point fine with me, since I pretty much conceded it to the Zulus already. The advance notice is appreciated though; it strengthens the trust and continues building the foundations of what may soon be a full-fledged alliance.

Hey there Dan,

Settling the Clam site should be fine at this point. It looks like we're largely in agreement about the first two points, and the third is more-long term so it can be hammered out over the next couple of days. :-)

-SleepingMoogle

And a bit later:

Okay - we're on track to settle next turn. I think that the next thing that should happen is plan the actual city sites. Rather than talking abstractly about where the borders might be, let's put our city sites down. Do you feel that you have enough map information to do that? We don't know where the iron is but that's the only missing resource (other than the late ones which we won't have for some time anyways). Adlain and mackoti may throw a wrench in things but if we can present a united front like you talked about, I think we should be able to work things out to both of our benefit.

So we'll be 1SE of the clams, and you talked about 2N of the horses maybe. With those cities (and the ones that you have already placed), where might you want to consider placing the city east of clams? In terms of our easternomst city, it's tough to try and be on the coast and grab the southern ivory. Maybe 2E of the rice? Or perhaps we go off the coast? (boo!) :-) Or maybe 2SW of the ivory (1N of the peak) and we have a separate inland city west of the ivory (depending on where you plant)?

As for the longer term arrangement, I think we're open to that - do you have any specifics that you'd like to propose? If you don't mind, it's probably easier if you type something up that I can take to sunrise. He's usually pretty good at responding to things but it can be harder to get him to come up with something. Personally I think he's just waiting in the wings to steal all the glory ;-)

I'm glad that we are getting things worked out - and we're looking forward to a great relationship with you.

dan.
regoarrarr
zulu

To be honest, I haven't really considered alternate sites to that 2N horse city, so I'll have to go with that for now. It leaves the Rice site a little cramped, but I doubt we'll put enough cultural pressure on Rego's site to threaten the resources.

Greetings Dan,

Judging from the map, placing a city 2N of the Horse doesn't leave a lot of options for the city east of your Clam site. 1N of the Rice is about the best I can come up with on short notice. Other cities would probably go further east to claim the land there.. perhaps 1N of the Furs to block Adlain from advancing further, and another city somewhere to its northeast claiming the Fish and Gems resource.

Alternatives are 1E of the rice, but this would mean reshuffling the other cities. I'll try looking into that option later today, but it doesn't look too attractive at first glance. Apologies for the delay in this. My last couple of days have been crazy with changing work hours, and that always makes me feel exhausted for a few days. I'll have tons of time to pour over maps tomorrow though (and maybe a CK turnset). :-)

Anyway, Adlain is likely to be the biggest headache here. Mackoti and I are on fairly good terms, and I get the impression he's currently far more worried about Luddite than me. I'm hoping I can leverage that to block his expansion into the peninsula (okay, it's not really a peninsula) in between us. On the other hand, we are settling directly into land that Adlain will likely claim to be his, so it is much more likely to turn volatile. Fortunately for us though, Adlain seems to be falling behind and between the two he looks to be the softer target, so I am confident we will be able to counter him whatever he does.

I guess the question right now is how far you're willing to go with the united front. I am definitely open to a long-term alliance if the settling agreement keeps going like it is now, but military action (at least for the moment) is not the preferred route. Better to leave it as a defensive response, or to claim more land once peaceful settlement is no longer possible. Perhaps 'General' Sunrise will have some ideas here? It'll be an opportunity to steal some glory at least. :-)

-SleepingMoogle

I received this while I was writing the message, but didn't notice until after it was sent:

Hi again,

I'm planning to declare war on Mackoti next turn. The map basically forces us into conflict- there's no way I can claim enough land to keep up with Parkin, without warring with Mackoti. Especially after he broke an NAP with me.

I couldn't help but notice that his only source of copper is right on the border with you, next to the city of Dudu Georgescu. It's a hill city, but it's weakly defended, probably just a warrior. You could take it very easily, giving you a very nice city to your east. With his copper gone, he'd have no chance of taking it back.

Anyway, I just wanted to bring up that possibility in case you wanted to help out, and help yourself to a nice city as well.

This raises some interesting possibilities. If I were to take that city, I basically get the entire peninsula as well as long as we can block off Adlain's expansion. So I'm definitely interested, but right now am bound by a NAP with Mackoti lasting until 1AD.

At the very least, Mackoti's attention won't be on me, so I might be able to expand around him. Still, that doesn't mean we can try to work around the NAP either. The trick will be to get Mackoti to cancel it so that technically my hands will be clean. Perhaps aggressive settling will do the trick. I sent him a message a week or so ago asking about how to approach the remaining land that can be considered disputed between us, but he has yet to answer it. Maybe we can interpret that as a 'I don't mind'. Certainly we haven't agreed on anything official.

So let's keep all options open for now:

Greetings luddite,

Given that it Mackoti's sole source of Copper, you raise an interesting point. For now though, I am unfortunately committed to a NAP with him, and would probably not be able to help out with the war for the foreseeable future.

Still, I am keeping all options on the table for now. Perhaps the impending war will enable me to leverage Mackoti into canceling the agreement; I'll have a look at whether or not that is workable. But for now, I'll keep quiet at least until you declare to avoid spoiling the surprise. ;-)

-SleepingMoogle

[SleepingMoogle]

Just a quick touching up on what's happening (not too much). We're still headed to Monarchy with 40% break-even research. I suppose I could post a few screenshots, but there's very little I could say about them right now. Just plugging along I suppose.

I'm starting to think I got a bit unlucky with the placement of happiness resources. I have gold hooked up, but other than that.. most other Civs have 2-3 hooked up by now. Yet for me Furs and Silver right up against the upper edge of the map in very unattractive tundra land, Wines needs Monarchy, Whales needs Optics, and I doubt I would have been able to claim the Gems and hold onto them. Would a religion have made sense? Maybe, but it still feels like the wrong thing to focus on as a Creative Civ.

I know, I'm just complaining here. I'll be training a Settler to at least get the Furs location just so I can grow my cities to size 6, and once Monarchy finishes the happiness crunch should be averted again. It's just slow going until then, and it could very well leave me in the dust of the current top Civs.

[SleepingMoogle]

Hi Sleeping Moogle,

As Mackoti already wrote - probably our most interesting offer will be to gift you our freshly-born GreatScientist.
Maybe "dedicated privatization" of a exploatation-rights for a resource - other than copper - could sound interesting for you too ...

Best regards,

Ioan

Wait what? A free GS?

Where do I sign up?

[Sciz]

What's this all about then? That sounds a little too good to be true!

[SleepingMoogle]

The current NAP between us expires on turn 115, and Mackoti approached me about extending it. With all their attention on luddite, the western border is in all likelyhood very lightly defended, and Mackoti pretty much admitted right away he would have to put something good on the table to secure an extension. I asked him what sort of offer he was thinking about, but I honestly didn't expect anything like this.

A GS seems like overkill for a NAP extension. Even if the war is going badly for them though, this is too good an offer to pass up especially since I basically don't have to do anything for it. As it turns out, they also want some units, which makes me consider how much I'm willing to piss off Luddite for that GS. It benefits me to draw out their conflict so I'm not too hestitant at this point, the main problem is that those units were trained to generate HR happiness.

Perhaps I can force them to give up further settlement of the area south of their westernmost city in return. That would help avoid potential settlement disputes with them later on at least.

[SleepingMoogle]

After a bit more back and forth, we won't be picking up an easy GS. Mackoti wanted me to gift him 10 Axes in addition to the NAP.

Yes. 10.

Eventually he dropped that to 8, but even then he wanted them faster than I could deliver them. But that's a silly trade either way. This would certainly be more palatable in the late game, but right now 280 hammers is too big an investment, especially since the units are primarily meant for HR happiness.

So instead I suggested settling rights for a NAP. His last message is looking promising:

Hi,
I think i can agree about a setling agreement, i just want a spot for a city near Dudu, near cooper and fresh water. and you can have all the rest. I think this is exceptional good for you.As you can see from our power we are still building military and we intend to use against Luditte but can be use for defence too, and i can whipp border with you to size 1 and pile, archers, axes, walls so i think is more benefecial for now for you too take this agreement(if i was you i would loved the agreement), you will outech us and eventualy after turn 140 came and finish the job.I have my fight with Luddite and i will be sorry someone to get in in Luditte favour.
I still can use 2 axes for example if you are good enough to gift i will repay somehow.
About happines resources we have nothing what you dont have is more likey you'll find something wich will be double for you so you could help us but this remains to be discussed.
Regards,
Mackoti

There's some threatening language in there, but in truth I'd much rather avoid warring with Mackoti when I might have problems with Adlain in the south. Instead, he's basically offering settling rights for the entire landmass to our southeast. I think I can live with that single city he wants to settle.