RBP6 Lurker Thread

[Bobchillingworth]

It amazes me that some people still argue that pitboss is somehow preferable to PBEM. Pitboss 3 was paused for months at a time and eventually died because of people constantly missing their turns- even multi-man teams couldn't play them with any consistency. Why would this sort of game be any different? Most people here don't have their lives revolve around their mp Civ games, and PBEM is a much more accommodating format for people with actual lives.




I agree mostly with Serdoa that given the nature of this game Dazed probably should have just decided to accept the lost turn- it's stupid that a Civ game requires you to structure your real life around it, but again that's one of the downsides with Pitboss (or at least Pitboss as played on RB). But I can see also why he's pissed at Sulla; stating that someone needs to "man up" to play their turns implies that they aren't able to keep pace due to a character deficiency, rather than maybe having a career and sleep cycle.

[Mardoc]

It amazes me that some people still argue that pitboss is somehow preferable to PBEM.

I'll never sign up for one, I have enough trouble keeping a PBEM pace moving smoothly. I'd sign up for a real-time multiplayer game first. Maybe I could have done Pitboss back when I was in college and single.

I think this is a theory/practice difference. Technically, pitboss can do everything a PBEM does, and more. And if you start off with a crowd who's willing to commit to 100% availability or accepting a missed turn, then it could work.

It's just in practice that never seems to happen. At least not here.

[Nakor]

It did work great in PB2 and PB4 from my POV with a few issues, especially during war-time.

The problem, I think, is that this is a PB-PBEM all in one...

[Ellimist]

In terms of the initial startup, I think the reason part of the community steered away from participating was simply due to burnout after the last pitboss game.

I think a bigger part of the problem was trying to do something so radically different from the norm. Pitboss 5 had plenty of interest until the untested RB mod was forced onto it and everyone lost interest. Pitboss 6 forced several awkward settings, mostly the always war sequential teams and the medieval start. Each game is going to have some aspects that set it apart from the others and make it unique, but it's possible to go too far.

A game with simple settings similar to the first four pitboss games would probably have gotten enough momentum to really get going. IMO, the only reason that pitboss 6 started at all was that people wanted to get started with another pitboss.

[darrelljs]

I actually like the settings with PB6, I just think not all the players involved have a RL that enables participation. Those that do are against an infinite turn timer in the likely correct assumption it will enable laziness.

Darrell

[Mardoc]

I just think not all the players involved have a RL that enables participation.

You might be right. In which case they should be like me and stay way the heck away . This isn't really an argument about pitboss, this is an argument about mixing together players with different levels of commitment.

[T-hawk]

It amazes me that some people still argue that pitboss is somehow preferable to PBEM. ... PBEM is a much more accommodating format for people with actual lives.

Pitboss CAN be exactly as accommodating as PBEM if you just ditch the clock. (with either sequential turns, or an airtight double-move ruleset for simultaneous.) The problem with Pitboss comes with the compulsive hyperactive pit bulls that devour each new turn like fresh meat and scream their bloody heads off when (not if) anything interrupts that.

Pitboss 3 was paused for months at a time

Pitboss 3 was too big. 17 players means more than three times the chances of interruption as compared to a 5 player game. By comparison, Pitboss 4 ran pretty well as I remember. Pitboss 6 is suffering from the same size problem, out of 12 players somebody is going to miss sometime. Sullla and Speaker think that the team setup should alleviate that, but that only works when the teammates are the type to check every few hours. Dazed's teammates had no idea he was out of pocket and were also sleeping by the time he could have posted anything.

[Serdoa]

It amazes me that some people still argue that pitboss is somehow preferable to PBEM. Pitboss 3 was paused for months at a time and eventually died because of people constantly missing their turns- even multi-man teams couldn't play them with any consistency. Why would this sort of game be any different? Most people here don't have their lives revolve around their mp Civ games, and PBEM is a much more accommodating format for people with actual lives.

Can't agree fully with that Bob as it sounds like PB would only be for people without an actual life and that is imo not true. I don't want to piss anyone off, but imo if having to play a turn every 4 days (a turn which takes maybe 5 minutes, mind you) or at least inform your teammates that you might not make it is asked too much, you probably are not going to get happy in PBEMs either. I don't know how the teams communicate but I guess most is happening in chat or via email and I think it should be easy enough to inform someone when you are not available.

I mean I have seen the same happening in PBEMs. Saves get held for 30+ hours without any information and then you get to hear that someone was travelling or whatever. I don't mind that, that happens, but in most of the cases I am pretty sure that people don't get informed only 5 minutes before starting several day long journeys. And saves are normally rotating within 24 hours, so people know they will miss their slot. Still they don't inform anyone but rather let you wait and guess. Thats disrespectful against all the other players imo. I've had that in the years I've played WoW as well btw. Players just not showing up to raids or coming 30 minutes late and then telling you that you should not be upset with them, after all THEY would have a RL. Well, the others too, and they arranged it so that they won't let anyone wait. I learned from my parents that letting someone wait and showing up late is bad behaviour... I think realizing that that is also true when it comes to MP-games might actually help offset much of the heat some people are getting (not at RB, generally speaking).

Though tbh I probably have interpreted too much into your words anyway. Sorry if thats the case. It's just that several years discussing with people in WoW about what can and can not be expected from someone who joins a "professional" raid-guild made me a little bit touchy in regards to this subject.

I agree mostly with Serdoa that given the nature of this game Dazed probably should have just decided to accept the lost turn- it's stupid that a Civ game requires you to structure your real life around it, but again that's one of the downsides with Pitboss (or at least Pitboss as played on RB). But I can see also why he's pissed at Sulla; stating that someone needs to "man up" to play their turns implies that they aren't able to keep pace due to a character deficiency, rather than maybe having a career and sleep cycle.

Thats something I agree mostly with. Sullla probably would have done better to simply take a step back before firing at Dazed. I am not sure I would accept myself the reasoning given by Dazed (as I said, just post that you will have a meeting and might not be able to look at the game in time - at most it won't be your turn anyway, but then you just have lost the 1 minute typing that) but I am sure I would be as upset as Dazed is if I am told to "man up".

[Bobchillingworth]

Oh, I surely get as upset as anyone (if not more so!) if someone routinely holds their PBEM turn for over 24 hours and doesn't have the courtesy to tell people that they might be slow to play (or doesn't have a good excuse. Hell, that's pretty much the main reason why I'm going to kill Kuro in FFH PBEM XI (I don't care if Thoth or the Rev reads that).


But the difference in my mind between PBEM and Pitboss is that while people expect a 1-turn-a-day pace in PBEM games, it's much more flexible about when you can play that turn, because you don't have a clock literally ticking down until your turn is missed and OMG now we have to have an acrimonious debate before inevitably reloading. And the special "turn slots" in RB Pitboss games just make it so much more of a pain to play, due to the ease with which it can interfere with your RL. And even if you do tell people that you can't play for a while, it means that someone had to pause the game and everyone else's play windows can get screwed up. Whereas in PBEM games, the general rule is that you try to play when you can after you get the save, and if you'll be delayed you just let everyone know what's up & people accept it, because there isn't some doomsday clock ticking down until the turn flips and there's no consequence for holding the turn except other players possibly becoming impatient. Essentially, it's a lot more relaxed, and it is a more friendly format for people who aren't willing to wake up at odd hours to play a turn of a computer game (which I've never heard of anyone doing for a PBEM).


I think your WoW analogy is more akin to someone missing a PBEM Blitz session without forewarning- people will get pissed then, but blitzes are also activities which are planned and confirmed days in advance and involve every player setting aside a block of RL time to play, so missing one of those without any reason is a much more serious offense than holding a regular PBEM turn.

[Jowy]

You guys raid every night? :O