WW25 - Game Thread

[Mattimeo]

Now I think we have one wolf left. It could be Q or it could be Jkaen. I do not believe that Uberfish is a wolf. I just don't see wolves with a Daykill. Plus Jowy's death seems to indicate scum wanted to get Uber lynched. I don't see Mattimeo as a wolf at all. Doesn't fit.

That's pretty much where I'm coming from, except there's rather more concrete proof of your innocence than mine, since 1 scum looks pretty much inevitable now, imo.

Matt have you gone to bed? Uber strongest preference? Q?

yeah, got work 40 mins from now, not going to be awake at 2am when that's the case, sorry.

Cause I still feel 2-2-12 is low and it might be 2 wolves or 1 + random third party, who knows...

They wouldn't have won already if it was 2 wolves left on the same team? Only 4 people left alive at the moment...

[Lewwyn]

So when I woke up this morning I had a bit of a revelation. I'm posting this now in case I die. My revelation was Mattimeo.

Yesterday when I was going over who I suspect and why, I ruled out Mattimeo as a suspect. Why? Because he scanned me? I actually can't come up with a decent reason why he can't be scum. Let's go through my list:

1) Outing me and himself.
A) Why did he immiediately out someone who killed scum? B) Why risk his own life so early in the game? C) Why did he follow/watch Azza?

a) Yes he might say its because he thought he caught scum, but if he is a wolf then he would have wanted to catch other scum or try to get a vigilante lynched. If he were a wolf then maybe he's trying to get townie points (which worked).
b) As a wolf he might only have to worry about one scum faction, and as a "town power role" he could get protective roles to target on him instead of any targets.
c) He scanned Azza looking for power roles. Look at his reasoning:

Why were you tracking/watching Azza, Matt?
Why would scum night kill Azza?

Azza is someone who's generally quiet, but can contribute well late - and will often reach late game.
Hence, knowledge about him is going to substantially increase known about him, and is likely to be relevant for much longer than if I tracked someone who's more likely to be killed as a threat early on, or lynched early for putting their foot in their mouth.

I'd imagine scum would kill him for similar reasons - it doesn't leave much of a trail if he ends up dead, and he can be quite good late game.

I'll admit I was focusing more on the 'track the person you target' side of things rather than the 'see who visits them', which would likely have skewed my target more towards those likely to be attacked that night.

Why not watch somone who might die like Zak, novice or Uber? I'm just not sure his reasoning his very village.

2) N2 and N3 actions
-Followed me Night 2 and confirmed what I did. After Night 3 he did NOT say what I did. He also did NOT say who he followed, until after Night 4, when he revealed he'd followed me to Jowy. But I already had revealed that. What if Mattimeo had followed someone else looking for other power role abilities and was waiting for me to say what I did so that he could claim that?

3) Gazglum Lynch
-Gazglum was bussed. No doubt about it. Only zak and gaz did not vote for him. Matt votes for him early, then unvotes when he "buys" the claim, before swapping back to Gaz again. Not sure if its a scum tell but its not a non-scum tell. In terms of hopping on Gazglum, Matt was 3rd and Q was 4th within minutes of each other.

4) Ran out of charges.
-I think this is pretty self explanatory. On the night pindi dies, Matt convienently has runout of charges. But he didn't reveal this before this night... and scum would KNOW that IF Matt had charges he would follow pindi? So why didn't scum kill Mattimeo? THEY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN SURE IT WAS SAFE TO KILL PINDI AND NOT BE SEEN BY MATT! Unless Matt was doing the killing.

****Mattimeo should have been killed before pindi. If the last scum was Q, he was not under suspicion at that point. he would have killed Matt, then killed pindi next.

5) Brick.
-Who was Brick trying to lynch? Matt. Who was Matt voting for? Brick. Why was Matt voting for Brick before Uber revealed his bullet immunity and left the lynch on Brick? Why was he voting for Brick before Zak was killed? His vote:

I'm a bit more suspicious of Matt at the moment though. That seems like something you would have warned the village about, instead of suddenly not having it ready when it's most needed.

Which part of "warning the village == warning the wolves, and they can actually take advantage of the situation" did you not get? You're seriously voting me because scum happened to luck into the action they shold have taken had I warned the 'village'?

You know a vote that makes 100% more sense than that? BRickAstley for lying to us about his post restriction.

This was from before Uber's shot and Matt never changed his vote from that point on in the day. A few hours from the deadline Matt posts this:

I think Brick's vote and subsequent leaving on Matt is really suspicious. I really don't think scum would have a powerful tracker/watcher combo power role. With two factions how do you balance that? And why would scum reveal on day 2 and make themselves a target for the other scum faction? It just doesn't make sense. Brick's vote on Mattimeo is incredibly scummy... here I go talking myself into lynching Brick. FYI, upon rereading a bit, Novice was sure Brick was a Serial Killer, which I could buy.

As I've said, I'm not sure I buy the SK theory, but I can totally see BRick as the other wolf.

I just don't see how much of his play has actually been any good for the town. He deliberately restricting his ability to communicate for the two and a half days (and lying about it being forced). He joined a lynch that seemed primarily based on meta-speculation *based on his lies*. He pushed for specifics from me/Lewwyn/pindicator while being quite reluctant to reveal any details of his own role. His attacks, when he *hasn't* had scum served up on a platter (he knew novice had been blocked by pindicator N2, resulting in a missing kill, and didn't actually have much interaction with Gazglum until Gazglum started attacking him) have been completely uninspired - today's on me consisted of me not having fully divulged my role at a time suitable for him (withdrawn when called on it) and coming back because my "play has felt somewhat off". Yes, that seems the best he can do if he doesn't have scum handed to him on a platter right now.

The entirety of Day 3 spent focusing on novice can't really be counted in his favour. A wolf is just as likely to want a ghoul dead as a villager, and if you can focus on the one person all day long you're a lot less likely to give away any interaction tells.
Gazglum going after BRick in a last ditch effort to save his own life on D4 seems to be pretty much the main point propping up BRick's innocence at this point. And really, when you're on the block like that, why not try to distance your only remaining buddy as much as possible?
Also interesting to note is this little snippet, immediately after Gazglum's seer claim:

unvote

Here's a thought: What if Pindicator is a wolf? No kill on purpose to drive in an easy and guiltless mislynch?

That unvote is from Gazglum, btw, who he didn't get back on to until 3 hours before deadline, well after the lynch was actually decided.

And then, today he claims he's not going to be around for a period that happens to include the entire night period? Well, wouldn't that be a nice alibi if we get a kill tonight, and he definitely wasn't around to submit it?

TL;DR: BRickAstley

Which is reiteration of lynching Brick mostly based around the faked PR. Other that none of it is really solid evidence. But Brick goes to the Gallows.

6) The next day.
-Matt knows I want to lynch Jkaen. When Uber starts to think about Jkaen being innocent, Matt says yeah okay I can see that. He doesn't move to Q though and leaves Uber to die if Uber doesn't switch back to Jkaen, forcing us to lynch Jkaen and set up lynching Q the following day.


I think the wolves killing pindi and not Matt is the most damning thing of all. But there are lots of little things that add up.

Matt is the wolf.

[Serdoa]

Another quiet night ended. The gods move in mysterious ways.

[Lewwyn]

Another quiet night ended. The gods move in mysterious ways.

I'm happy not to be dead even if we are at LyLo.

Mattimeo as prescribed above.

[Serdoa]

Sanity is at 10.

[Qgqqqqq]

Laid out like that, I think I agree. mattimeo
Oh, and if I'm scum, why not kill?
When I was awake it seemed like all three of you were set on me, so what do I gain from no-killing last night? This also fits better with Matt as scum because he could pick either lynch to join, while uber already had suspicion and probably should've targeted Matt to remove the non-suspected person suspicious of him.
Apart from the scum-would-never-do-that points of course.

[uberfish]

Assuming it's 1:3, and the last wolf is confident that it's 1:3, the optimal play would just be to no kill since it's lylo anyway. Leaving town three mislynch candidates to choose from instead of two. Everyone has claimed they're out of abilities that could detect scum, in any case.

Ok going to independently check your case Lewwyn. I trust you as town at this point

[Mattimeo]

2) N2 and N3 actions
-Followed me Night 2 and confirmed what I did. After Night 3 he did NOT say what I did. He also did NOT say who he followed, until after Night 4, when he revealed he'd followed me to Jowy. But I already had revealed that. What if Mattimeo had followed someone else looking for other power role abilities and was waiting for me to say what I did so that he could claim that?

I tracked you N3. I don't have any way to prove it, but I tracked you. I actually through Serdoa might have messed up and sent me the same PM as N2 when I first saw it

3) Gazglum Lynch
-Gazglum was bussed. No doubt about it. Only zak and gaz did not vote for him. Matt votes for him early, then unvotes when he "buys" the claim, before swapping back to Gaz again. Not sure if its a scum tell but its not a non-scum tell. In terms of hopping on Gazglum, Matt was 3rd and Q was 4th within minutes of each other.

Agreed that it's not a town tell. Though you do point out one interesting thing. Qgqqqqq jumped on immediately after me. Perhaps realising it was inevitable and that not bussing would make him stick out like a sore thumb? Though I can't say it looked particularly inevitable when I voted Gaz, bringing him up to equal with both Jkaen and BRick (discounting the cross-posted unvote from Qgqqqqq, off Jkaen). Looked more 'necessary to get the most likely scum lynched' than anything else.

4) Ran out of charges.
-I think this is pretty self explanatory. On the night pindi dies, Matt convienently has runout of charges. But he didn't reveal this before this night... and scum would KNOW that IF Matt had charges he would follow pindi? So why didn't scum kill Mattimeo? THEY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN SURE IT WAS SAFE TO KILL PINDI AND NOT BE SEEN BY MATT! Unless Matt was doing the killing.

****Mattimeo should have been killed before pindi. If the last scum was Q, he was not under suspicion at that point. he would have killed Matt, then killed pindi next.

I had actually run out of charges that night. I realise it wasn't the best timing, but I didn't expect to still be alive at that point.
How about some other, just as plausible explanations for why they killed Pindicator first:
They knew or suspected I'd have limited charges. We have no idea what Gazglum was, we have no idea what the last scum is. Their abilities could have had limiters (like pretty much every revealed ability in the game), and they took a guess on that.
They could have had some way of *knowing* that I wasn't going to be able to track that night. A role blocker or the like (with limited charges, same as everyone else who gets more useful late game) who could prevent me from observing them killing pindicator.
They were willing to take the chance of me tracking someone random to try to find the killer directly, since pindictor was such an obvious target, and they hadn't gone for obvious targets the last two nights. Or they just thought I was an idiot who tracked Azza N1, revealed D2, and wouldn't think to track pindicator 'cause no-one had explicitly pointed that out.

Of course, as soon as I then reveal I ran out of charges, I'm a brilliant patsy to keep around to train a mislynch on as needed, aren't I?

5) Brick.
-Who was Brick trying to lynch? Matt. Who was Matt voting for? Brick. Why was Matt voting for Brick before Uber revealed his bullet immunity and left the lynch on Brick? Why was he voting for Brick before Zak was killed? His vote:

I'm a bit more suspicious of Matt at the moment though. That seems like something you would have warned the village about, instead of suddenly not having it ready when it's most needed.

Which part of "warning the village == warning the wolves, and they can actually take advantage of the situation" did you not get? You're seriously voting me because scum happened to luck into the action they shold have taken had I warned the 'village'?

You know a vote that makes 100% more sense than that? BRickAstley for lying to us about his post restriction.

This was from before Uber's shot and Matt never changed his vote from that point on in the day. A few hours from the deadline Matt posts this:

I think Brick's vote and subsequent leaving on Matt is really suspicious. I really don't think scum would have a powerful tracker/watcher combo power role. With two factions how do you balance that? And why would scum reveal on day 2 and make themselves a target for the other scum faction? It just doesn't make sense. Brick's vote on Mattimeo is incredibly scummy... here I go talking myself into lynching Brick. FYI, upon rereading a bit, Novice was sure Brick was a Serial Killer, which I could buy.

As I've said, I'm not sure I buy the SK theory, but I can totally see BRick as the other wolf.

I just don't see how much of his play has actually been any good for the town. He deliberately restricting his ability to communicate for the two and a half days (and lying about it being forced). He joined a lynch that seemed primarily based on meta-speculation *based on his lies*. He pushed for specifics from me/Lewwyn/pindicator while being quite reluctant to reveal any details of his own role. His attacks, when he *hasn't* had scum served up on a platter (he knew novice had been blocked by pindicator N2, resulting in a missing kill, and didn't actually have much interaction with Gazglum until Gazglum started attacking him) have been completely uninspired - today's on me consisted of me not having fully divulged my role at a time suitable for him (withdrawn when called on it) and coming back because my "play has felt somewhat off". Yes, that seems the best he can do if he doesn't have scum handed to him on a platter right now.

The entirety of Day 3 spent focusing on novice can't really be counted in his favour. A wolf is just as likely to want a ghoul dead as a villager, and if you can focus on the one person all day long you're a lot less likely to give away any interaction tells.
Gazglum going after BRick in a last ditch effort to save his own life on D4 seems to be pretty much the main point propping up BRick's innocence at this point. And really, when you're on the block like that, why not try to distance your only remaining buddy as much as possible?
Also interesting to note is this little snippet, immediately after Gazglum's seer claim:

unvote

Here's a thought: What if Pindicator is a wolf? No kill on purpose to drive in an easy and guiltless mislynch?

That unvote is from Gazglum, btw, who he didn't get back on to until 3 hours before deadline, well after the lynch was actually decided.

And then, today he claims he's not going to be around for a period that happens to include the entire night period? Well, wouldn't that be a nice alibi if we get a kill tonight, and he definitely wasn't around to submit it?

TL;DR: BRickAstley

Which is reiteration of lynching Brick mostly based around the faked PR. Other that none of it is really solid evidence. But Brick goes to the Gallows.

I'll agree it's partially based around his lies about the post restriction, but I'm sorry, if someone *unnecessarily* lies in a game like this, I'm going to have a lot of trouble believing them for the rest of the game, and trying to simplify it to a point where there's an actual reason behind the lies (ie. that they're scum) 'cause I don't want to think less of them for pulling an absolutely boneheaded move that they *should* be policy lynched for.
And the evidence is more bloody 'solid' than anything you've pulled out now (with the exception of the pindicator kill, which I'm still trying to understand how he got killed instead of me).
Also: you think BRick wouldn't have gone to the gallows if I'd been voting anyone else? He still would have had 3 of 7 people on him. Unless you think I should have joined you on Jkaen so you could argue I'm sheeping you 'cause I consider you 100% town?

6) The next day.
-Matt knows I want to lynch Jkaen. When Uber starts to think about Jkaen being innocent, Matt says yeah okay I can see that. He doesn't move to Q though and leaves Uber to die if Uber doesn't switch back to Jkaen, forcing us to lynch Jkaen and set up lynching Q the following day.

...because you wouldn't be arguing that I'd forced *your* hand, rather than uber's, if I'd switched to Qgqqqqq and he'd come up town instead of Jkaen? It'd even 'set up' Jkaen today, with your doggedness to get him lynched over the last couple of days. I thought it was one of them, but Jkaen seemed much more likely since I've hardly seen anything from Qgqqqqq.

I think the wolves killing pindi and not Matt is the most damning thing of all. But there are lots of little things that add up.

The only actual point you have is that pindicator ended up dead instead of me. The rest is bullshit that you're using to support a mislynch, that I can't even work my head around 'cause I have you confirmed as town by pindicator announcing an intention to visit you on the night he died.

Matt is the wolf.

I'm not.

[Mattimeo]

Assuming it's 1:3, and the last wolf is confident that it's 1:3, the optimal play would just be to no kill since it's lylo anyway. Leaving town three mislynch candidates to choose from instead of two. Everyone has claimed they're out of abilities that could detect scum, in any case.

Ok going to independently check your case Lewwyn. I trust you as town at this point

Maybe they tried to kill you, and got blocked by your 'bullet'-proof

One reason why the scum might not want 4 people left is that Qgqqqqq's mayor vote actually matters in this situation. Scum can lose by Q + one other voting scum, or win by Q + one other voting town.

I also don't think it's actually 3 mislynch candidates - Lewwyn is pretty much proven to not have been capable of the pindicator kill. Having 4 left is not going to increase the mislynch candidates, just the number of votes.

Qgqqqqq is the only option that makes sense as a wolf. Lewwyn is town, and while I could see uber as a third party, I can't see him as a wolf.

[Lewwyn]

I reread day one and found a couple of ingesting things. First:

@Gazglum whats your opinion on Jkaen & Matt?

Jkaen seems fine to me. He's been very quiet, but he's said multiple times in the past that the weekends aren't good for him, so it's not a scum ploy. I'd hoep to see more from him next week. But I think when he has posted it's made sense.

Mattimeo seems pretty in character to me, which is to say, slightly suspicious. I never really get town reads on Matt, because he lurks and focuses so much on meta, but I also don't get anything particularly scummy from him this game. I understand why he voted MJW, I agree that Jowy is a good vote. I do think that "I'm voting Jowy because of what Lewwyn said" is a bit weak, but that's the only slightly scummy tell I would point to.

Rowan questions me and gaz about Matt and Jkaen. Gaz's response on Jkaen is pretty quick. His response on Mattimeo though is a bit long winded and basically distances him as possible scum but not really scummy in the larger picture. I think it's something a wolf might say about his partner. At the end of the day both Matt and gaz are on Jowy.

Before the end of the day though:

OTOH Mattimeo is diving deep and has decided to not post anything at all during the last 8 hours which is a fact I don't like.

lol, nice timing there

Rowan posts about Matt, Matt shows up a minute later in a possible cross post. Still, Rowain was killed night one. He was questioning gaz about Matt and voicing suspicions about Matt. MJW was also on Matt for most of the day.

After reading all his posts that day I don't see anything villagery. His cases are nonexistent and he mostly piggybacks onto my case for Jowy, which I later completely turn around on, Matt just sits there though.

I felt that during day one Qg was actually quite villagery. Even if slowcheetah ended up a villager, his push was good. Slowcheetah was being suspicious at the end of the day I was voting for him too.