RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

Ruff became the first civ to grow to size 4, and Imhotep whipped his capital back to size 1.

3 techs - ZPV, Sunrise and Krill. I'm going with Krill with Bronze Working, and the other 2 with the Wheel, but it's pretty much a guess. Soldier count is pretty much impossible at this point, and techs are starting to get that way.

Score is still doable though, for now.

[regoarrarr]

Email to shadyforce

Before I lay out my proposal, a few notes on some of the things you said.

You're right about the cow tile. I came up with 23 tiles because I calculated it at 14N 9W, so 14+9 = 23. But you're right that if you go diagonal 9 tiles and then north 5 tiles, you're there, so that's 14.

As for my north - there is the sheep / clams site. But like I said there are no other resources that I have seen within 10 tiles. I do plan on sending a guy up there before too long, but if I am correct that this is all one landmass, then I have to expect there to be another civ to my NW, and sunrise is going to be heading that way too. But I do hope to get a few cities up there.

As for the cities you can found, did you get your directions mixed up again? You mentioned the cow / corn / ivory to the northeast - is that to your northwest though? I think I see the site you're talking about, but it's northwest of where I thought your capital was.

Okay, so on to the proposal. It does seem like we're talking about the same thing though! You mentioned the 3 contentious cities (cape cow, banana / dye, and south of the little lake (Lake Isabella).

And it seems like we are both in agreement that we want to not settle in the disputed area, for a period of time (until we both know the map well enough to be able to make intelligent decisions on a border). So we just need to figure out

A) What is the border area
and
B) How long are we not going to settle there.

Your point about horses is a good one, and I can be reasonable on that. Do you know when you'll be discovering AH? I assume you'll get there before I do.

As for defining the area, it seems that defining it in terms of city sites is best. Taking the dye city for example - is that a city ON the dyes? Or a city on the same latitude or longitude as the dyes? Or a city that touches them? Or a city that has them in the BFC?

So, my proposal is that neither of us founds a city whose city center is in the disputed area, as described below. Starting where the Little Miami river empties into the John Nolan Fjord (aka East Fork Lake aka right near your scout first met my borders). Go 6 tiles straight south (including the peak tile and the bananas tile) until you are 1 tile directly E of the 2 tile lake (Lake Isabella). Continue directly east on the latitude of Lake Isabella until you hit the coast. Neither of us will settle a city whose city center is east or north of this line (including the tiles that make up the border) until T50 (I'm just guessing on this turn - certainly up for negotiation).

Agreeing that this area is "disputed" and between us does not mean that it should be 1/2 mine and 1/2 yours, or all mine or all yours. It's just that this area still needs to be mapped out a bit. We may find that judging from the rest of the map, that it's fair that it should all be mine or all yours or somewhere in between. But until we have a bit more info, I thought it was best to not get into any kind of settler race.

Once the horses come in, we can talk again. Are you wanting to found your 2nd city with horses, if feasible?

How's all this sound?

My settler is going to found in 4 turns, and it will be outside the disputed area that I proposed. I'm a bit worried that we'll run into some issues if he tries to expand the area to include Green Twp while I'm in the middle of founding.

I am assuming that he is researching Animal Husbandry right now and will be done in a few turns. I don't know if he'll tell me exactly where the horses are.

[regoarrarr]

Email from Kalin

Gentlemen,

I had a quick chat with Dreylin and the League would like to formalize
our current deals which I think would benefit us all to a good extent.
We can have an addendum about adding one or more partners to this deal
for HBR and/or Aest at no extra cost

Let me know what you think.

Kalin

My response

I am happy to formalize things as they stand. I appreciate you guys letting me decide who (if anyone) is our 5th partner - hopefully I can meet ZPV soon and get a better handle of the lay of the land and figure this out. My initial reaction is that I'd like to keep it at 5, as Aesthetics isn't a very great tech since none of us are Industrious and stone and marble don't appear to be very plentiful on the map (I've seen one marble, far in the NE)

[Dantski]

One thing I'd like to say.

While I like the friendly communication with our neighbours, telling them we don't have X resource could be potentially very useful to them if they plan on building wonders.

I think you also spilled the beans about something earlier.

Again I don't want to be too critical, but make sure to scan your messages for any information you're giving that isn't necessary to spill.

[regoarrarr]

Quick update

@Dantski - Thanks for the feedback. I am trying to not blab too much sensitive information. I did tell the Lins that there was no stone / marble around - maybe I should be closer lipped about that

But the big news is that I caught up to Shadyforce in game. He replied back to my email but it was kind of superceded by 2 things that happened when T33 rolled over

#1 - he has horses right near his capital

#2 - he explored the fog to the NE of his capital and it connects to the Mali continent. So he said that he's not going to push me too much towards me.

He said that I could have the cape cow spot as well as the spot to the south of Green Twp. So that's good news.

T33 domestic note - Chop came in. I swapped to the worker to get the chop - 31/60 in to it. Dan the warrior was built and is going to explore off to the northwest. I will swap back to warrior next turn to grow to size 3.

Settler moved south and is ready to found in 3 turns. Fishing in 2, with the wheel in I think 4 after that (it's partially researched already, I think 52/90?)

[regoarrarr]

Summary email from Shadyforce

Here's a summary of the proposal:

You get the Cape Cow site (the optimal spot appears to be 1S, 2E of the cow tile).

You get the area on the eastern isthmus which is just north-east of the Cape Cow site and however far north that goes.

You get a city in the general area of between Lake Isabella and the nearest Coast tile to it.

The area on and near the Little Miami River to be decided later. Maybe we split up the area there between a city each, maybe one of us just takes it, maybe we race to it, maybe we wager it on an external sporting event, maybe we toss a coin. To be decided.

Those 4 sites represent somewhat of a diagonal line. All sites south-east of that line belong to me, including the Corn site on the east coast (which is south-east of Cape Cow with no BFC overlap), my 2 "nice" city spots which are north and west of the big lake, though I reserve the right to reshuffle my dotmap a bit, maybe squeeze 3 cities into the space. Should be possible to plan the cities with minimal or no overlap to a Lake Isabella coast city.

The land south of the Lake Isabella coast city and west of a city in the Corn/Ivory site area is right on the apex where myself, yourself, Carthage and possibly even Spain will be contesting. So there will probably (hopefully) be some pointy stick diplomacy over that region.

So that's nice. I get all the cities in my dotmap (which I posted a few pages ago), and possibly a few more, depending on future explorations. Still need to see where Carthage is in all this, as well as Imhotep and any civ that is to my NW (and/or Sunrise)

[regoarrarr]

T34 played. Fishing due in 1. Settler moving, warriors exploring. I'll post a screenshot on T36 once Green Twp is settled.

But an interesting email from Kalin

We have just met with Krill/Memphus of the Incas who are going to soon
see sunrise's borders. They wanted to talk about deals. I haven't yet
shared our deal because actually I was in a real rush and didn't have
much time to write. I was wondering what do you guys think, and if
there is place for another tech. We kind of agreed that Aest is not
that useful at this point, but I was thinking that since they are a
bit late to the game we could suggest them MC. Sure it's a bit more
expensive, but they'll still get great benefit out of the deal and we
would also get a tech that would have been part of a second wave of
trades. What do you think? Would it be unreasonable to ask them for
MC?

My reply

Here's a few thoughts. These are of course my own opinions.

1. What are the aims of this tech trading alliance / cabal? It was kind of my thought (and I could be wrong!) that, while not required, it was somewhat likely that this closer participation would continue at least for awhile. I.e. that the 5 of us would then each research another, mid-level, tech, like Construction, Calendar, Metal Casting, etc. If Metal Casting is reached as part of the first "wave" of tech trades, then that eliminates one spot for one of our members.

2. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like having a situation where everyone has a beaker deficit to give (such as would be the case if someone researches Metal Casting which is more expensive (675 beakers compared to 450 for Monarchy / Alpha) is harder to deal with than the one where a few people have a beaker deficit (i.e. BRoker and I owing beakers to you and sunrise, and Broker owing beakers to me). Not to mention Broker would owe Krill / Memphus 375 beakers, which seems like a lot.

3. Krill and Memphus are EXTREMELY good players, and I hesitate to do anything that will help them too much. Perhaps that is not "right" to say, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

This by no means says that I won't do the trade, if you guys both want to, but those are my first thoughts.

I really don't want to include anyone else in this tech trading alliance, since the more people that we "leave behind", theoretically the better off that *I* am. But I really don't want to include Krill / Memphus because I know how good players they are.

[regoarrarr]

Okay - turn 36 report is in!

Green Township is founded. I did notice that I missed being first to settle by 2 turns - both ZPV and Imhotep founded their 2nd city last turn (T35). I will actually have line of sight on Imhotep's city with my warrior Alex next turn.

So first, an overview


Alex is far in the NE exploring Imhotep's lands. Based on espionage points, I believe he may have met someone recently (he now has 58 against me, which is not a multiple of 4). I will send him a note next turn.

Bob has found a good spot for a city to the SW of Lake Isabella (city center is 2SW of the western of Lake Isabella's 2 tiles). This may be contested by Carthage, but it has a grass cow, 3 coast, 5 grass hills and 11!! flat grassland tiles. Talk about cottage cheese!

Charlie is currently garrisoning Green Township.



Annoyingly, on T35, I lost 2 beakers because of unit supply, when I moved the worker and settler (and Dan) out of my borders. City Maintenance is now costing me those 2 beakers, so I am back to 10bpt (including the free one). I'll go up by 1 next turn when Cincinnati grows, and as the fish and copper come online at Green Twp, I will also grow. Obviously the real solution is Pottery and cottages, which is about 11 turns away.

Dan is moving to the NW of Cincinnati. He'll search a few turns for resources near the coast up there, and then move SW towards Dreylin / sunrise, exploring the land bridge. I'm kind of surprised I have not seen them yet.

And here is the capital.


Growth back to size 3 next turn, and warrior due in 2 (8/15). I have 31/60 in a worker after that. I will have to run some numbers with whipping the worker and just general post-Pottery plan soon.

[regoarrarr]

More email on the tech trading confederation - all of these were sent 3 way between myself, Sunrise and the League of Lin

Hi all,

Just thought I'd also throw my 2p in the ring (not that I'm entirely
up to speed).

I agree with Dan's point 3, they are an extremely good team - as
anyone who watched SANCTA will know.

Re: point1 - part of forming this sort of tech alliance has to be
attempting to get a leg-up on your opposition - force them to play
catch-up to our tech lead. We're looking at a 5-member arrangement,
which is nearly half of the players in the game; if we expand the
cabal, we don't leave so many to get left in our dust. Ultimately, we
want some of our other neighbours to fall behind so they become
vulnerable....

Gentlemen,

I understand your concerns. I just thought I would throw the idea out
there. My suggestion for Krill/Memphus was that they would *waive* the
beaker difference! That would be a price for them to pay if they
choose to. For the initial 5 members we still need some adjustments
simply because some of us will need some prereqs.

I don't have a lot of experience with MP and I understand the
Krill/Memphus are good players but it seems to me that they won't be
able to compete against 5 people doing research together! If our block
stays together (and I really hope it does) then their alternative is
to found one of their own and then well, attack one of us?

Let's agree for the moment not to mention to Krill/Memphus our
agreement for a turn or so, until we finalize discussions.

Also since we are already hinted at a second wave of trades, this may
be a good time to put some things forward. What would be the options?
I can see MC, CoL, Construction, Currency...

All of the above by the way is just for the purpose of discussion and
should not be interpreted any other way

Kalin of the League

Hi guys,

I met the Krill/Memphus quechua on my borders and chatted a bit with Memphus in game, purely about tactical stuff - where to move his unit and what to do about a bear in the area. He didn't mention diplomatic efforts at all.

I agree we're faced with two opposing goals - make ourselves stronger and others weaker. For example, if 10 of us agree not to trade with one team that team will almost certainly loose the game, but there will be very few spoils for the 10 teams in the research bloc. In principle I'm open to letting Krill/Memphus in for Metal Casting since we all gain beakers by such a trade, but I think the negatives do indeed somewhat outweight the positives.

+ Beaker advantage
+ Convert strong team into potential allies
+ Probably prevent them from joining another potential tech trading alliance - for all we know, Imhotep, Ruff, etc have their own 5-way deal

- Stronger Krill/Memphus team
- Makes second round of tech trades more difficult
- Sharing details of the trade informs them of our confederation

Anyways, for now I won't mention the tech trading agreement to Krill/Memphus one way or the other.

Also, regarding tech trades, here is the relevant tech tree: http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9076/...ot0418.jpg

Yellow check marks are techs we'll all have, assuming a 5-way trade. Then we can cross out Machinery, Feudalism, Optics, and Engineering as either too expensive or not directly researchable. That leaves the techs in my picture with the beaker values listed. Theology is also available, but it's a bit more expensive. Anyways, I think what makes the most sense for the second round is Metal Casting, Code of Laws, Currency, Calender, and Construction. There is a 150 beaker difference between the cheapest and most expensive techs, but based on any early cheap techs some of us lack we can probably make things work fine, especially since after currency we can trade gold.

Thoughts?

Hello,

We have received a proposal from Krill/Memphus about trades. They said
that they were thinking about going for alphabet or maths. We should
plan to talk until tomorrow so that we can send them a response.

We can talk (chat?) more tomorrow but here are some of my thoughts.

Are we agreed that we don't want to involve them in our trading confederation? It seemed like that to me from reading the emails but just wanted to confirm.

So, if that's the case, we just have to figure out what we say to them and how, and ideally I guess we would kind of stall them from meeting any other civs, as much as possible, so that they would not form their own confederation (or at least delay it as much as possible)

I agree with sunrise's suggestion of the next round being Metal Casting, Code of Laws, Currency, Calender, and Construction. I'm also interested in Construction though I wouldn't mind Currency either. Conveniently that is also 5 techs (i.e. 5 people, 1 per tech)

[regoarrarr]

And following up on this, an email exchange from shadyforce, formalizing what we talked about in-game the other night

Here's a summary of the proposal:

You get the Cape Cow site (the optimal spot appears to be 1S, 2E of the cow tile).

You get the area on the eastern isthmus which is just north-east of the Cape Cow site and however far north that goes.

You get a city in the general area of between Lake Isabella and the nearest Coast tile to it.

The area on and near the Little Miami River to be decided later. Maybe we split up the area there between a city each, maybe one of us just takes it, maybe we race to it, maybe we wager it on an external sporting event, maybe we toss a coin. To be decided.

Those 4 sites represent somewhat of a diagonal line. All sites south-east of that line belong to me, including the Corn site on the east coast (which is south-east of Cape Cow with no BFC overlap), my 2 "nice" city spots which are north and west of the big lake, though I reserve the right to reshuffle my dotmap a bit, maybe squeeze 3 cities into the space. Should be possible to plan the cities with minimal or no overlap to a Lake Isabella coast city.

The land south of the Lake Isabella coast city and west of a city in the Corn/Ivory site area is right on the apex where myself, yourself, Carthage and possibly even Spain will be contesting. So there will probably (hopefully) be some pointy stick diplomacy over that region.

Okay that sounds good and I accept. We will have to see how things go in the river valley - I suppose a lot will depend on the lay of the land, both ours as well as our neighbors.

I am liking my interactions with him and lean towards including him in our 5-way tech trading cabal. I am just hesitant to do so without first meeting ZPV.

Someone had mentioned that they didn't think shadyforce was that good of a player (DAntski maybe?) I'm not sure whether that's true or not and I'm not that great either. But if we assume that shadyforce is not as good a player as ZPV (just for the sake of argument), I'm still not sure that makes our choice any easier.

There are pluses and minuses to both ways. On the one hand, allying with the stronger player against the weaker one would theoretically make your 2 v.1 go better. On the other hand, you have to worry about being able to take out your stronger partner later. But if you go with the weaker partner, then you should still be able to 2 v. 1 the strong guy, and it leaves you (in theory) with the ability to take out your former ally later, if you really are a "better" player.

Some interesting things to think about anyways....