Get Rich or Die Tryin': HidingKneel and Mardoc tackle the Khazad (Spoilers!)

[HidingKneel]

I'd say that timing is about 50-50 on the Bard - and only if no one Philosophical tries the double-bard trick. There's only, uh, two of those. Plus Calabim with no other good early GPP options. But I like going that way a lot more when it's post-aristo; not nearly as many turns lost if we fail. And we've got to go up to Drama anyway for reasonable culture - the only border pop option we have under 40 hammers - so it's not a waste.

Well, the two philosophical civs have both already generated non-bard GPs, so they're actually at a disadvantage if they wanted in on the Drama-race. Besides, the Kurios don't need culture that much, so Drama is probably not so attractive to them.

Turn 43 played. Huey 2.0 made contact with the Ljosalfar:



Note Warriorknight benefitting quite nicely already from our NAP: otherwise we could have snatched two workers this turn.

Now that we've met another civ, we can check in again with the demographics. Here's GNP:



Note that I was wrong: Sian's not the one who's neck-and-neck with us in commerce. Must be one of the two civs we haven't met yet.

MFG shows Warriorknight firmly in the lead:



Ours will look even worse next turn, when we switch to working farms in the capital.

And here's power: (oops! Wrong screenshot )

We don't look quite so bad anymore, but we're being inflated by the thane that gets settled next turn. That's okay, though... two cities with bronze mines that need to grow to their happy caps ought to get that fixed up in a hurry. At which point, Mardoc's plan of sending out a couple of bronze warriors to scout the land sounds pretty appealing.

Note that the Kurios are a little high on the power side. Here's the latest diplomacy on that end:

Greetings Flintheart,

Our last few turns have been prosperous, indeed in the words of the sage Stinson, Legen - (wait for it) - Dary!

Sorry, couldn't resist . With the 3 cities now founded, the incentive for settling other sites isn't that high, particularly in the west. I don't expect further expansion towards your capital, though there will probably be some settlements to hold my borders. In any case my cities have a bit of infrastructure to complete first.

Regarding the weapons deal, I am not really a fan of NAPs or that sort of thing, especially over a point like this. However I can give you two assurances, first, that as of this moment the Kuriotates are not planning any wars and second, that any bronze weapons we receive from the Dwarves will not be used in an offensive action against them. I agree the trade connection is likely to be the main obstacle to such a trade, and I'd prefer to delay discussing price until then. It will be easier to estimate how long your weapons will be effective for and what goods the Kuriotates could supply.

Happy Mining,

TBS.

Not sure if it's paranoia on my part, but the message doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. He isn't going to expand any further "towards our capital", but we're really worried about him pushing towards the Money Bin. And he isn't planning any wars, but also doesn't want an NAP. Which tells me that he's not ruling out the idea of an offensive war if we start to look like too much of a threat. Well, I can't blame him for not being too excited about the bronze offer. I wouldn't be either, in his shoes. I assume he's teching (rapidly) towards centaurs. Note that if we give him bronze and hold him to the letter of his promise, he can't use centaur chargers against us. Maybe I should follow your suggestion, and float the idea of exchanging bronze for safe passage for a great merchant?

Speaking of diplomacy, I sent this off to Sian:

Queen Arendel,

It is a pleasure to make contact with you at last. The Khazad are pleased to extend our hand in friendship. Our empire is not far from yours, and hopefully we will be able to do some business!

Flintheart Glomgold, Founder and CFO of the Khazad Mining Corporation

Revolted into Kilmorph this turn. Next turn we found city #4. I'd say we're doing pretty well. The Kurios have all of their supercities, but Sian and WarriorKnight are both still at two cities. Of course, getting out of the gate faster is to be expected, with our Ind trait and dwarven workers.

Dwarven Vaults: empty

[Mardoc]

Well, the two philosophical civs have both already generated non-bard GPs, so they're actually at a disadvantage if they wanted in on the Drama-race. Besides, the Kurios don't need culture that much, so Drama is probably not so attractive to them.

Oh, yeah. I hadn't really considered that angle, but you're right. Hard for the Grigori to overcome the Palace GPP in another city, or to count on a specific great person from the capital.

And although Grigori *do* probably want Drama at some point, we've consistently been ahead of them in GNP and should get further ahead.

I think I like the Drama plan, the way it currently stands. My gut still says we should slip in AH between CoL and Festivals, but really I'm willing to wait and see - it matters a lot how our health caps are doing and how many animals we get inside culture. And it would be very good to start on a GP of some sort, for which Festivals would really help.

Turn 43 played. Huey 2.0 made contact with the Ljosalfar:

Given those demos - well, even the Elf econ potential is going to take him a long long time to catch up. I'm a little surprised he's not doing better than that, would have thought Creative at least would help him more.

I know the elven econ is very good eventually, but I suspect he's going to be weak for a long time. He might therefore be a good ally candidate. I bet bronze is low on his priorities, so we could sell him copper, and/or rent out jungle clearing workers. Depends on how he reacts to the message, I suppose.

Ours will look even worse next turn, when we switch to working farms in the capital.

Yes...for a little while. I'm confident that our overall demos will improve a lot once we start growing cities vertically.

Not sure if it's paranoia on my part, but the message doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
...
Maybe I should follow your suggestion, and float the idea of exchanging bronze for safe passage for a great merchant?

General feeling from my angle...we're not yet important to him, either good or bad. He's apparently managed to claim a lot of the resources he wants, his demos are good enough that we're not a threat, so we don't have much of anything he wants. Something small like that might be a good place to start. Or come back later after we've expanded further, and gotten some real military on the field.

The only thing we've currently got that he might want is Kilmorph. No idea what a fair price is, though!

I'd say we're doing pretty well. The Kurios have all of their supercities, but Sian and WarriorKnight are both still at two cities. Of course, getting out of the gate faster is to be expected, with our Ind trait and dwarven workers.

Agreed. Vaults are a pain, but we seem to be overcoming that. And the map being small makes the REX opening matter more. Once borders meet, then vault filling should put us in good shape.

[HidingKneel]

I think I like the Drama plan, the way it currently stands. My gut still says we should slip in AH between CoL and Festivals, but really I'm willing to wait and see - it matters a lot how our health caps are doing and how many animals we get inside culture. And it would be very good to start on a GP of some sort, for which Festivals would really help.

I doubt we'll get any animals in our culture; we're only due one more border expansion (in the Money Bin) before we get drama. WK's cotton will bring our happy caps past our health caps, but I don't think that's enough to justify AH before Drama: assuming we get the bard, Drama comes with Sanitation, which is a much more dramatic boost to our food situation than a single point of health.

For tech path, I'm thinking

BW -> Education -> CoL -> Festivals -> Drama -> Animal Husbandry -> Fishing -> Masonry -> Construction

That doesn't get us Construction as early as you wanted it, but I think we should probably be okay. We still ought to have enough time to get a Siege Workshop in the capital before the NAP expires. If WarriorKnight is looking too belligerent, we should be able to quickly tech HBR at that point and make use of ING to rustle up a quick army of chariots.

As for the GPs, we're presently cooking a Temple of Kilmorph in The Money Bin while it grows to its new cap.
That'll let us work two specialists, so we could get one out by around T65 if we don't care what kind, or around T75 if we want a merchant (which I think we do). Though I'm still not clear on the best use for our first GP.

Played another turn. No screenshots this time because postimage hates me .

No response from Sian yet (and I still haven't replied to TBS).

Founded our new city of St. Canard, positioned to grab rice, bronze, and sheep. That'll be our last city for a little while.
Meanwhile, workers continue to work, and the Money Bin grew to size 5.

Dwarven vaults: empty .

[Mardoc]

I doubt we'll get any animals in our culture; we're only due one more border expansion (in the Money Bin) before we get drama. WK's cotton will bring our happy caps past our health caps, but I don't think that's enough to justify AH before Drama: assuming we get the bard, Drama comes with Sanitation, which is a much more dramatic boost to our food situation than a single point of health.

Yeah, it's a tough one. If you're first, it's definitely worth it, if you're not, it's...maybe? I mean, we're fairly committed to Kilmorph if we're gonna be proper Dwarves, so Drama is definitely worth having. Mostly a question of whether it's worth having that early, which circles back to odds of getting the Sanitation bard.

If we do get free Sanitation, then perhaps we delay AH even further. Chain irrigated Aristo/Sanitation farms will be just about all we need .

For tech path, I'm thinking

BW -> Education -> CoL -> Festivals -> Drama -> Animal Husbandry -> Fishing -> Masonry -> Construction

That doesn't get us Construction as early as you wanted it, but I think we should probably be okay. We still ought to have enough time to get a Siege Workshop in the capital before the NAP expires. If WarriorKnight is looking too belligerent, we should be able to quickly tech HBR at that point and make use of ING to rustle up a quick army of chariots.

Tentatively I agree. May change my mind if the situation changes, of course .

I'd forgotten Ingenuity as well - 1 gold/hammer is an excellent deal. We ought to lean on it. Build lots of warriors, and also Markets/Elder Councils/Kilmorph spreads and temples, etc, the stuff that's often not worth the hammers. Because we'll be saving so many hammers on unit buildings and units, that changes what's worth doing.

As for the GPs, we're presently cooking a Temple of Kilmorph in The Money Bin while it grows to its new cap.
That'll let us work two specialists, so we could get one out by around T65 if we don't care what kind, or around T75 if we want a merchant (which I think we do). Though I'm still not clear on the best use for our first GP.

Well, one thing I was reminded recently while reading to try to fix Molach's issue: Currency is no longer +1 Trade Route. It pretty much only buys us Consumption, the ability to trade gold, and a prereq toward things like Taxation. I don't think it's worth having early.

To be honest, I like a trade mission the best, with Tablets of Bambur as a runner up (and only if Kilmorph is spreading well and has the potential to keep spreading). The options for bulb are just too restrictive, while gold gives us options. It can be any tech, or a happiness boost. Plus it's thematic .

That said, I would hire both specialists immediately after getting our first Merchant. Priesthood and whichever of trade/Tablets we didn't do are both attractive, and will pay better once we're later in the game. Or a GA, for that matter. Gotta start on that 167 GPP sometime if we want it on any reasonable schedule.

[HidingKneel]

Yeah, it's a tough one. If you're first, it's definitely worth it, if you're not, it's...maybe? I mean, we're fairly committed to Kilmorph if we're gonna be proper Dwarves, so Drama is definitely worth having. Mostly a question of whether it's worth having that early, which circles back to odds of getting the Sanitation bard.

Well, there's only a narrow window in which we'll actually lose anything by going for it. We can stockpile gold after code of laws: I think the sprint through festivals and drama will only take 5 turns. If we miss out, I think we should go for sanitation directly. Construction will help once we have lots of citizens to work tiles, but sanitation will help us grow those citizens.

If we do get free Sanitation, then perhaps we delay AH even further. Chain irrigated Aristo/Sanitation farms will be just about all we need .

Maybe. We'll be at the health cap at that point, so cow/sheep pastures will help us grow further. But that can probably wait until after another round of workers/settlers.

I'd forgotten Ingenuity as well - 1 gold/hammer is an excellent deal. We ought to lean on it. Build lots of warriors, and also Markets/Elder Councils/Kilmorph spreads and temples, etc, the stuff that's often not worth the hammers. Because we'll be saving so many hammers on unit buildings and units, that changes what's worth doing.

Wait, does Ing help with buildings? I thought it was only for unit upgrades.

Well, one thing I was reminded recently while reading to try to fix Molach's issue: Currency is no longer +1 Trade Route. It pretty much only buys us Consumption, the ability to trade gold, and a prereq toward things like Taxation. I don't think it's worth having early.

Agreed... it's not something that's going to be a huge boost. Trade mission would be better, if we can arrange one.
Tablets of Bambur I'm not so sure about: that'll pay eventually, but I think having Currency will pay sooner. Especially since we'll be probably be unlocking Arete around then, so it'll be convenient to be able to do a double revolt. And we definitely want to be running Consumption whenever we start filling our vaults, though that's probably further off.

Gotta start on that 167 GPP sometime if we want it on any reasonable schedule.

Not sure I agree: we'll be much, much better at generating GPP once we've got full vaults, bonus GP generation from Arete, and more specialists enabled from infrastructure buildings. After we generate the cheap one, I think we should focus on making those things happen.

Question for general lurkers: does anybody else use postimage? I can't seem to get it to work anymore.

Anyway, another turn played. No screenshots hammer.

Nothing exciting on our end. Grew a size in Duckberg and Brutengrad, sending an experienced warrior to deal with an approaching barbarian. Demographics reveal that we're mediocre at everything.

Foreign affairs were more exciting. TBS founded Fellowship of Leaves and revolted to it. Since that all happened this turn, he must have gotten a free disciple from a lair. Annoying for Sian, but no skin off our nose.

Also, the Grigori and Ljosalfar both founded their third cities this turn. So we've got a one-city lead on each of them. Most likely, they will catch up during our vertical growth spurt.

Dwarven vaults: empty .

[Mardoc]

Wait, does Ing help with buildings? I thought it was only for unit upgrades.

Indirectly. In the sense that we only need one Training Yard, one Siege Workshop, etc. Although I suppose nothing upgrades to Trebs, so I was probably overselling it.

Tablets of Bambur I'm not so sure about: that'll pay eventually, but I think having Currency will pay sooner. Especially since we'll be probably be unlocking Arete around then, so it'll be convenient to be able to do a double revolt. And we definitely want to be running Consumption whenever we start filling our vaults, though that's probably further off.

Well, hmm. 900 beakers for currency = 750 gold. To make back 750 gold, we need to produce 3750 gold. Gold, note, not commerce. If we have Markets everywhere and no temples, then it's happiness neutral; if we have temples, then we need Taverns or Theatres, just to break even. We don't really want Taxation, as we're going for Aristofarms. There's a couple wonders and some civics we won't be using down that line, but that's all.

Are you sure we want Currency? Seems to me like a large cost for rather delayed and small benefit. Might break even, if we don't need the lost happiness and we're filling vaults from empty to overflowing for at least eight cities. With a delay - so really I'd want at least ten cities worth of vaults, minimum.

Not sure I agree: we'll be much, much better at generating GPP once we've got full vaults, bonus GP generation from Arete, and more specialists enabled from infrastructure buildings. After we generate the cheap one, I think we should focus on making those things happen.

Ok, I can mostly agree with this, though. I was mostly assuming that the relative cost of running specialists goes down over time, but it might not. At least, we're likely to want to move that to a different city, one with a National Epic and lots of food tiles.

Demographics reveal that we're mediocre at everything.

Vertical growth ought to fix this. Nothing's better for demos than adding a couple improved, worked, tiles every turn.

Well, except maybe an Aristocracy revolt followed by acquisition of Sanitation .

Foreign affairs were more exciting. TBS founded Fellowship of Leaves and revolted to it. Since that all happened this turn, he must have gotten a free disciple from a lair. Annoying for Sian, but no skin off our nose.

Very interesting. I wonder if that can be made into a wedge?

I also wonder if there are any dungeons out there with *our* name on them

Also, the Grigori and Ljosalfar both founded their third cities this turn. So we've got a one-city lead on each of them. Most likely, they will catch up during our vertical growth spurt.

Well, we've got a good lead, anyway. I do find it ironic that the Khazad are proving to be the REX champions.

Oh, on a totally different note: We ought to give serious thought to sliding in Philosophy between Masonry and Construction, if the Bone Palace is still around. Marble doesn't seem guaranteed to everyone, and of course Industrious isn't either.

[HidingKneel]

Are you sure we want Currency? Seems to me like a large cost for rather delayed and small benefit. Might break even, if we don't need the lost happiness and we're filling vaults from empty to overflowing for at least eight cities. With a delay - so really I'd want at least ten cities worth of vaults, minimum.

That's a pretty convincing case we don't want to tech Currency. So a trade mission would definitely be a better use of a merchant. I think Currency will pay better than the Tablets, but of course building the Tablets is more fun. Don't need to decide yet, but sometime within the next 10 turns or so. Should sound out TBS about whether he'll let us run the trade mission.

Foreign affairs were more exciting. TBS founded Fellowship of Leaves and revolted to it. Since that all happened this turn, he must have gotten a free disciple from a lair. Annoying for Sian, but no skin off our nose.

Very interesting. I wonder if that can be made into a wedge?

Dunno. Sian still hasn't responded to my message; I hope I sent the message to the right place.

I also wonder if there are any dungeons out there with *our* name on them

There's at least one: that goblin fort up north of St. Canard. I'm pretty sure we'll be able to crack it (with Trebuchets) long before Sian is. Though it's not clear we want to: as you pointed out earlier, our bonus vs. poison makes a steady stream of poison-goblins a good source of xp.

Oh, on a totally different note: We ought to give serious thought to sliding in Philosophy between Masonry and Construction, if the Bone Palace is still around. Marble doesn't seem guaranteed to everyone, and of course Industrious isn't either.

I think that should wait until after Construction. But probably no longer than that. Especially if it looks like we've got a shot at the Great Commander: we could use it for a golden age, during which we tech and swap to Arete. (Or accomplish the same with the Bone Palace.)

[Mardoc]

I think Currency will pay better than the Tablets, but of course building the Tablets is more fun. Don't need to decide yet, but sometime within the next 10 turns or so. Should sound out TBS about whether he'll let us run the trade mission.

Oh, right . It was Currency instead of Tablets, not instead of 900 beakers of other teching.

May be worth it, then. But in either case, not as much as a trade mission, so we've probably beat the topic to death.

If TBS won't let us trade, trading in someone else's smaller city is still probably better than the alternatives.

I think that should wait until after Construction. But probably no longer than that. Especially if it looks like we've got a shot at the Great Commander: we could use it for a golden age, during which we tech and swap to Arete. (Or accomplish the same with the Bone Palace.)

Unless Aristocracy helps us a lot more than I'm expecting, I doubt we can be first to more than one of Drama, Military Strategy, and Philosophy. Our GNP is good, but it's not head and shoulders above the foes. I think Drama's worth the most to us.

I only mention Bone Palace because I know we're both Industrious and have marble on a non-mirrored map. That might give us a shot at the wonder without being first to the tech.

Still, if I'm wrong and the others choose to neglect the first-to's, then the GC could be worth diverting for, sure. We're Org, so it's another tech we want sooner or later; might as well be sooner.

I'm *really* keeping my fingers crossed that aristocracy + REX = huge income. We're coming up with a wishlist much faster than the turns are coming around with our research .

[HidingKneel]

May be worth it, then. But in either case, not as much as a trade mission, so we've probably beat the topic to death.

Just in case it's still breathing: we are planning to fill our vaults eventually, once we're done expanding. If the map has around 1400 land tiles, that's enough for around ten non-overlapping cities per civ. Considering that cities are likely to have overlapping BFCs and that we're likely to grab more than our share of land, I'd put it at more than ten (not to mention what we might grab via conquest). So the figure of 3750 isn't so crazy: assuming the game doesn't turn into a bloody mess soon, we really will want to generate that much cash, and more. As for the happiness deficit: markets are slightly more valuable than Kilmorph spreads anyway (unless we build the Tablets). So unless we're lucky enough to get the spreads for free, better to get a happiness from a market than happiness from religion.

Unless Aristocracy helps us a lot more than I'm expecting, I doubt we can be first to more than one of Drama, Military Strategy, and Philosophy. Our GNP is good, but it's not head and shoulders above the foes. I think Drama's worth the most to us.

Likely you're right, but you never know. Drama first (unless we see the Drama bard go). Afterward, it's worth a shot.
As you say, we want those techs anyway. And I think it makes sense to aim at wonders like FotT and Bone Palace: we're Ind and we have the doublers. That's enough of a multiplier to make wonders worth putting hammers in even if someone gets there first.

Resolved my issues with postimage by switching web browsers. New turn, with only one bit of excitement:



Promoted Louie to C1/S1 and killed a barbarian warrior. Brings us to 11xp. Now we just need to get 15 more in the next thirty or so turns, and we'll be ready when Warfare comes in .

Dwarven vaults: empty

[Mardoc]

Just in case it's still breathing: we are planning to fill our vaults eventually, once we're done expanding. If the map has around 1400 land tiles, that's enough for around ten non-overlapping cities per civ. Considering that cities are likely to have overlapping BFCs and that we're likely to grab more than our share of land, I'd put it at more than ten (not to mention what we might grab via conquest). So the figure of 3750 isn't so crazy: assuming the game doesn't turn into a bloody mess soon, we really will want to generate that much cash, and more.

Well, true. Plus all our expenses will still need paid even after we make it.

As for the happiness deficit: markets are slightly more valuable than Kilmorph spreads anyway (unless we build the Tablets). So unless we're lucky enough to get the spreads for free, better to get a happiness from a market than happiness from religion.

Disagree here. In the short term, we have the option for 40 hammers = 2 happiness and 1 gpt. That's an awesome deal, so long as we're happiness constrained. It also gives the option of 80 hammers = 2 happiness + 2 gpt, which isn't quite so awesome but still probably worth doing. Post Priesthood, the option will exist for 80 hammers = 4 happiness + 3 gpt, which is just super awesome. All the above assumes we keep the gems hooked up and Kilmorph as state religion.

Even assuming Consumption, Markets are only +1 happy/+ 3.6 gpt/-1 bpt for 40 hammers. Darn near the same ratio as a non-Religion Stonewarden at 2 happy/3.6 gpt for 80 hammers, so we'll still want to be spreading Kilmorph.

From a happiness perspective, Religion is simply superior. More happiness, sooner. Consumption makes sense only when we don't need happiness anymore, and I'm not convinced that'll ever happen. Or when we've got the spare hammers for Theatres and Taverns, at ~100 hammers/ea. Slightly more likely, granted.

But, the bigger picture makes things iffy again. These are arguments for what it takes for Currency to simply break even. There are bound to be many other options on ways to spend 750 gold, or a great person, that break even a lot faster. Possibly simply filling vaults earlier, and growing to use the extra happiness earlier.