[SPOILERS]PB34:Burnin' Daylight - DMOC/gsorel/Ichabod

[DMOC]

Wow, that map looks weird. Yeah, we're definitely stuck with Gawdszak for a while. For now, I think we can defend both of Borsche's cities with one impi.

I have a question for you (and the game admins as well). Since Gawdzak/chumchu are at war with us, shouldn't they be playing before us? They ended turn after you did and then finished the turn right when the game started. And judging from the score increases I see a settler. Not that it would have mattered for a settling race, but shouldn't the turn ordering be consistent?

Oh well, I'll wait and see the update.

[gsorel]

Ok ... he did settle the plains hill site defended by two warriors. I believe we can burn this city with an axe and an impi. Or we can just tolerate an unfavourable border?

What do you think we should do?

edit :he did play before us, I think he was just delaying EOT to see if we would accept a peace treaty.

[DMOC]

Huh, I'm not so sure. Perhaps we should think this one over. We still have nearly the full turn timer left.

By the time we get our attacking force over there, Gawdzak might have another axe ready over there. And you're right about us having land to settle. Has Gawdzak met anyone else? Is his espionage still all on us?

I'll send a PM asking Ichabod to chime in.

[Ichabod]

I say raze it. There'll never be peaceful coexistence with Gawdzak. His forward settlements prove this - it's obvious he has good land west/south, or this map is simply unplayable -, he's obviously trying to take every advantage he can over us. He's not a passive player, he won't let us just build our emipre while he knows that this means we win.

The map is probably 4 areas similar to ours (or, again, it's unplayable), so every single team will be on this rivalry situation from the start. Warring against Gawdzak now is taking advantage of an opportunity, while every single player that wants to win here will have to war his neighbours sooner or later. So, better to do it on our terms, with such a positive exchange.

Of course, we probably win by just building too, so it's your call.

On the plus of attacking, if you take out Gawdzak, everyone probably just concedes.

About the tech thread posts, I'd say we could post something like this: "Is this a concession offer? If not, stop doing diplo".

[DMOC]

Good point Ichabod. My concern with trying to raze is what to do about Gawdzak's axe (if he's built one, as gsorel said). If it was on turn 41, then according to roads, that axe will be able to defend Gawdzak's third city. We can get an impi out quickly by whipping next turn and using the same worker roading plan (which would have gotten the settler out if we wanted to build one). Another option would be to use impis to really attack his copper city, or pillage whatever road he has.

On the plus size, Gawdzak's already whipped three times and has low population, so probably isn't in the best shape to continue building axes. He's down to 4-5 population points (I think 4, actually, 2-1-1 for his three cities).

More thoughts after sleeping. Good night!

[gsorel]

OK.. I thought through an attack (burn 3rd city, choke cap, tech to construction to bomb down copper city) and I do think a more buildery approach will give better odds. Gawdzak can still make himself v. prickly.

I think I'll offer peace unless you think otherwise, DMOC.

The fact that both our neighbours settled in our direction (and Gawdzak aggressively) convinces me that Gawdzak/Borsche were gifted a more secure backline. In turn, I hope that we were compensated with access to more land. Our northern neighbour is really far away over good terrain. Even if we are successful in burning Gawdzak's third city, that still leaves us 2 cities vs. 2 cities locally. Even 4 vs. 2, we still have defender's advantage and logistics working against us. We offed one neighbour and I think there are diminishing returns on trying to wipe another. Our comparative advantage is in all the land we can cheaply settle. The cost of defending against Gawdzak on a two city/coast border seems manageable. I'm fine fighting a defensive war with shock axes (v axe) and AGG impi (v HA's) that would likely only increase our advantage over Gawdzak.

War is fun, but I think growing our economy is the better option here.

[DMOC]

That is my main concern (as mentioned earlier). Even if we attack, Gawdzak by now has a roaded empire and can still whip axes. And our two Borsche cities are too far to contribute for now. Then again, we know from intelligence that he's got 4 warriors and 1 axe (in all likelihood) and that he has 4 (maybe 5) total population points.

If we make peace, I'd suggest settling a city by the copper and pigs 3 tiles away from Gawdzak's newest city, so we deny him more of the land and prevent any further enroachment. I don't think this would adversely affect the rest of the dotmap. And, you know, we could re-declare in 10 turns ...

Regarding neighbors, did you move the impi south to explore more by Borsche's land to see if there are other civilizations nearby? (The previous screenshot is from turn 40.) And do we even have a northern neighbor at this point?

Edit: we also need to realize that Gawdzak isn't going to go away quitely (like an AI would) so we're going to be warring at some point. Would this be better to do with 5 functional, connected cities? My gut says yes, but we need to track Gawdzak's power while we do so.

[DMOC]

My official vote would be to offer peace but to also re-declare in 10-15 turns depending on how much military we think Gawdzak has.

I don't know if this is the best way to go, though. If we do this, I'd suggest:

- Settling 5th city 3 tiles away from Gawdzak's third city, with copper and pigs in first ring so that we can quickly get it up to speed. We can still settle it on turn 42 using your original plan with corresponding road changes. We could do 1 south as well to get fish in the second ring...
- All five cities need Ikhandas. We need to push our Aggressive advantage early. The 5th city can start with an Ikhanda, our second city can do an Ikhanda after it finishes the workboat.
- Borsche's old capital can grow to size 3, whip worker and put overflow into ikhanda (does that sound good?) then build impis.
- Borsche's second city can build an ikhanda, then build impis.
- Hopefully re-declare later with lots of impis (produced from Borsche's cities) and axes (produced from our closer cities).
- Research Pottery -> Writing afterwards so we can get libraries after we build all the military.

I know Gawdzak's going to be able to tell we have power, but we should be in a position to be able to get more power faster, and if Gawdzak ends up whipping too much, we can use all of that military as military police for our other cities.

All right, I think I should probably stop thinking about this and get back to work. I'll check back in tonight on how things go.

[gsorel]

OK... I played the turn to get it done, with the priority of creating a proper stitch.

*I do agree with the copper/pig site.
*Perhaps looking too far ahead but I do think we need Sailing before Writing.

Lots to think about!

[DMOC]

Thanks for the map! That's definitely one weird map. Let's just assume we don't have a northern neighbor and can settle that land all we want (well, to some extent ...).

OK, we can decide on the tech path in a few turns. But Pottery after Animal Husbandry for sure, right?

Any chance you can do a full update on turn 42, or whenever we get a fifth city (it should be turn 42, if I recall correctly), and possible address a few other questions I had earlier? If so, thanks. This would also allow me to update the intelligence reports. I'm going to be busy with work tomorrow but starting Tuesday my schedule clears up for a few days.

Also, if you would like me to offer a micro plan I can do that possibly Tuesday/Wednesday. Your previous plan would have to be modified to take into account our different "third" (really, fifth) city.