FfH Paring Questions

[WarriorKnight]

RoK isn't really in a bad spot, since Bambur gives enchanted blade to go with the priests' shield of faith, and the economic benefits it gives are pretty solid. It's Order that falls short compared to AV/Emp.

+1

RoK is great early due to the gold. The downside for the gold is that RoK has weak priest spells. Reasonably balanced IMO.

Along with Order, I'd say that CoE needs an improvement as well. While it's great to have as a non-state religion while following something else, it needs more benefits as a state religion other than just Nightwatches, Shadowriders and Gibbon to make up for the lack of Priests.

[Azoth]

Some more replies:

Peace time scouting surely isn't the problem anyway, and during war hidden nationality doesn't matter. Personally I think hawks are really good, but I don't see why that's such a bad thing?

The problem is that scouting by hawk is completely undetectable. You cannot tell if hunters near your borders are carrying hawks. You can sign no-scouting treaties with your neighbours but these can't be enforced because you'll never know if they're broken. Which means your enemies can simply arrange map trades with supposedly neutral parties. Hawks also make for a perfect sentry net: there's no need to risk actual units; and sneak attacks against competent players are virtually impossible post-Hunting. It's a similar issue with spies and BtS: put spies just outside enemy borders and you don't need to bother with Longbows-on-Hills and Sentry Chariots. Which is why most games around here are passive espionage only.
Allowing archers to intercept hawks would limit their power in a meaningful way. If hawks can't be Hidden Nationality for technical reasons, then you could simply outsource your espionage needs. But I suppose it can't be helped.

Since when were vault mechanics crippling?

Ever since they decided you need 100 gold/city to avoid unhappiness penalties and a staggering 500 gold/city to get the full benefit. That equation just never seems to work in my favour. Say I've just finished researching all the worker techs and expanded to five cities. Am I now expected to stockpile 500 gold over the next dozen turns - or turbo charge my economy by researching Code of Laws and switching to Aristocracy? Then, one hundred turns later, should I save up 2500 gold - or pick up Iron Working instead? And once I have Iron units, am I going to stick to five cities, or conquer five more? (Maybe expanding to five cities is itself a mistake. But that can't be right: if I don't claim that land and resources, someone else will.)
Basically, outside of small empires shooting for culture victory, it always seems better to spend money on research, expansion (city maintenance/civic upkeep), and military (unit costs) than to build up those dwarven vaults. More and more, I find myself ignoring the vaults altogether and eating the +2 unhappiness penalty (eased somewhat by free palace Gold.) That's why I call vault mechanics crippling - though I'd love to hear your own thoughts and experience.

Random suggestion- give half-priced libraries back to Creative like it has in BTS. Right now it's one of the weakest traits, and its current discounts are mostly useless.

Philosophical already has half-price libraries. Maybe half-price Theatres (or, better yet, Inns) would be better.

Along with Order, I'd say that CoE needs an improvement as well.

I actually think Order is just fine. Their priest spell (+1 base strength for all living units) is very strong and they have both a useful early hero and an impressive late hero. Plus, their temples balance out the -10%prod from Apprenticeship without chaining you to Nationhood. Basilicas are a bit pricy (maybe half priced for Organized isn't such a bad idea) and the High Priests are meh but you hardly ever get that far anyway.
CoE might need a boost. And yet… Gibbeon as the earliest possible Archmage can be very strong when played correctly. Plus, Nox Noctis invisibility is borderline imbalanced. What exactly are we looking to add here? Economic benefits? The free Great Sage and half price Gambling Houses from Undercouncil civic seem to have that covered.

[Bobchillingworth]

CoE might need a boost. And yet… Gibbeon as the earliest possible Archmage can be very strong when played correctly. Plus, Nox Noctis invisibility is borderline imbalanced. What exactly are we looking to add here? Economic benefits? The free Great Sage and half price Gambling Houses from Undercouncil civic seem to have that covered.

Consider, though- you don't actually have to follow Esus to get the shrine or Undercouncil benefits. All running the CoE unlocks is Gibbon, who suffers in comparison with Hemah due to being weaker and an illusionist, Nightwatch, who are essentially massively overpriced HN archers, and Shadowriders, which are actually decent units but require a very expensive tech to use. CoE needs more exclusive benefits.

[Amelia]

Simple, make undercouncil a CoE only civic.

[Brian Shanahan]

F Also can anyone check for the feasting the formula? I did a few quick searches but couldn't find it, but if I remember right it's based on population. Why not change that to be a flat 5xp per population point?

DerWillie I know this is old, and may already answered, but 5xp per pop point, unless it is pop point lost, will probably overpower the feeding.

The current formula is lose one pop, and 1xp per pop-point in the city before feasting less two. So a size 10 city will get 8xp and go to 9 pop.

[Cyneheard]

DerWillie I know this is old, and may already answered, but 5xp per pop point, unless it is pop point lost, will probably overpower the feeding.

The current formula is lose one pop, and 1xp per pop-point in the city before feasting less two. So a size 10 city will get 8xp and go to 9 pop.

I think he's referring to a flat 5-xp per act of feeding, completely separate from city size. It would remove some (annoying?) micro in waiting for your city to grow as large as possible before hitting it. Instead, the ideal feasting-only city is one running only farms & getting eaten constantly at that size.

[Selrahc]

Simple, make undercouncil a CoE only civic.

Undercouncil only has any effect when there are two or more civs running it, so that would be more of a massive nerf to Undercouncil than an effective boost to CoE.

I think the first and simplest fix for CoE is to make Shadows and Dwarven Shadows CoE only. If you want the best assassins, you damn well better join the assassin religion.

Secondly, if possible, change the costs for spreading CoE. Make it so that when out of the religion it costs 100g/city. When in the religion it costs 10g/city.

Thirdly, add a basic disciple unit for the CoE. Call it a "Deceiver". Have it unlocked at Deception. Give it medic 1 and the ability to culture bomb, and let it upgrade along the priest or recon line. Still no access to cure disease, but at least some faster battlefield healing and ability to quickly end resistance.

I think he's referring to a flat 5-xp per act of feeding, completely separate from city size. It would remove some (annoying?) micro in waiting for your city to grow as large as possible before hitting it. Instead, the ideal feasting-only city is one running only farms & getting eaten constantly at that size.

It makes it just generically weaker, unless feeding from a size 4 or less city. I'm not even sure feeding from a size 4 city is possible.

It also basically destroys a lot of the impetus behind having feed cities. You're never short of a good feeding site under this system, since any city is equally good.

[DerWille]

DerWillie I know this is old, and may already answered, but 5xp per pop point, unless it is pop point lost, will probably overpower the feeding.

The current formula is lose one pop, and 1xp per pop-point in the city before feasting less two. So a size 10 city will get 8xp and go to 9 pop.

No, just a flat 5xp per feeding.

It makes it just generically weaker, unless feeding from a size 4 or less city. I'm not even sure feeding from a size 4 city is possible.

It also basically destroys a lot of the impetus behind having feed cities. You're never short of a good feeding site under this system, since any city is equally good.

I wouldn't say that each city is equally good as another. Any GP farms or heavy production cities you'll want to leave alone. The opportunity cost of 5xp vs a specialist or a mine would have to be weighed.

Even for feeding cities it could make vampires think more about feeding and recovery. If they chomp 15 pop points down how long would it take the city to recover back to size 20?

[Irgy]

Undercouncil only has any effect when there are two or more civs running it, so that would be more of a massive nerf to Undercouncil than an effective boost to CoE.

Completely agree with this. The council is the worst choice for something to make CoE only.

I think the first and simplest fix for CoE is to make Shadows and Dwarven Shadows CoE only. If you want the best assassins, you damn well better join the assassin religion.

I liked this idea initially, but... This is a multiplayer focused modmod, right? Can you see a down side to changing a sneaky, invisible, hidden nationality unit in such a way that often only one or at most two players could possibly have built it? They're still good, but I really like the idea of being able to get up to mischeif with them.

More on that general topic later.

Secondly, if possible, change the costs for spreading CoE. Make it so that when out of the religion it costs 100g/city. When in the religion it costs 10g/city.

A great idea!

Thirdly, add a basic disciple unit for the CoE. Call it a "Deceiver". Have it unlocked at Deception. Give it medic 1 and the ability to culture bomb, and let it upgrade along the priest or recon line. Still no access to cure disease, but at least some faster battlefield healing and ability to quickly end resistance.

Adding new content is against the stated purpose of the mod (at least as I read it), but otherwise it's a decent idea. To be honest though, the lact of a disciple is an intentional part of the religion too, so I'd be reluctant to want to change it.

Also, you do know you can build disciples of other religions while running CoE, right? As is the same for any other religion. So you can already still get the medic 1 promotion and mini-culture bombs if you want them under CoE.

No, just a flat 5xp per feeding.

In my experience this would be a buff as often as a nerf. Feeding in low population cities is cheaper generally because the food required to regrow is smaller. Another scenario: A newly captured city, in revolt, and often worthless once out of revolt for a variety of reasons. Feed from pop 9 to pop 1 and gain 40xp total by your system, instead of 15xp under the current one.

If you really want to nerf it, make it max out at 5 rather than give a flat rate of 5.

I wouldn't say that each city is equally good as another. Any GP farms or heavy production cities you'll want to leave alone. The opportunity cost of 5xp vs a specialist or a mine would have to be weighed.

Even for feeding cities it could make vampires think more about feeding and recovery. If they chomp 15 pop points down how long would it take the city to recover back to size 20?

With Agrarianism, Sanitation and Sacrifice the Weak? About 15 turns I'd say. I've found myself limited by the 3 turns of unhappy more than the time to regrow.

[Bobchillingworth]

Adding new content is against the stated purpose of the mod (at least as I read it), but otherwise it's a decent idea. To be honest though, the lact of a disciple is an intentional part of the religion too, so I'd be reluctant to want to change it.

Also, you do know you can build disciples of other religions while running CoE, right? As is the same for any other religion. So you can already still get the medic 1 promotion and mini-culture bombs if you want them under CoE.

I'm also against adding any new units. What if Gibbon was made Medic III- that would make him a more useful long-term hero as well. Alternatively, make it so that Esus can build the Tier II units of other religions (you've clearly deceived them into thinking that you're actually running their faith!)


I agree with Selrahc's suggestions regarding the Shadows and CoE spread costs.



I'm against changing the vampire feeding mechanics. I have yet to see it demonstrated that feeding a core elite of vampires into Super Units is in any way overpowered except possibly against the AI. The amount of population and time that you have to invest in a high-level vamp balances out their extra promotions. Plus remember that they're already -1 strength compared to a normal champ. They need a ton of promotions (or lots of death nodes) to even stand a chance in straight combat.



Unrelated mod suggestion- make the Dovello Battlemaster cheaper. 100 hammers is a lot for a unit which only gets a random tundra bonus over a regular champion.