Civ/leader pick

[Lord Parkin]

I picked up LP's sandbox and played around a bit, since we have plenty of viable research openings:

AH (T13) -> BW (T26) -> Mysticism -> Wheel

Pretty standard opening.

Grow on warriors (3 built) and a barracks to size 5, then started workers (1 built) and settlers
Improved deer (T15); improved sheep (T20); built mine (T25); started chopping (T27)

The first settler is due T36, helped by two chops. We have two more forests to chop into Stonehenge (if we want to do that), meaning it's due T41 (T42 if we revolt to Slavery with the settler done) if I do my math right.

Okay, good to know. Delays Pottery for a while, but there's really no alternative if we want to take a shot at Stonehenge. Will do some simming myself later.

[Sareln]

Okay, good to know. Delays Pottery for a while, but there's really no alternative if we want to take a shot at Stonehenge. Will do some simming myself later.

Do we want to shoot for stonehenge at all or save our forests to Oracle Metal Casting? Or is that move just N00b bait?

[Lord Parkin]

Not sure. I think we shouldn't prioritize Stonehenge ahead of initial infrastructure and at least a first settler. However, if it's still around later it might be worth considering - even as a slow-build, saving some forests for the Oracle. Will have to test it and see what the expected teching and building times will be.

Probably best to wait and see until the game starts and we can tell things such as the number of total land tiles on the map, which should give some approximation of number of land tiles on the initial continent. If it's quite a lot, Stonehenge might come close to the Oracle in usefulness (or even be more useful). If it's not much, then the Oracle might be a higher priority.

[Mortius]

Do we want to shoot for stonehenge at all or save our forests to Oracle Metal Casting? Or is that move just N00b bait?

I think, we should prioritize Oracle, but I am pretty sure, we can do both
Stonehenge (80 hammers) and Oracle (100 hammers) are cheap Wonders for us, and we shouldn't use more than 2 chops for each (maybe 3 chops for Oracle.)

I am testing now. I should have some results today evening (European time )

[Mortius]

Team Pirate have just chosen Mansa, unfortunately

It means Team Troll can be a competitor for our Stonehenge.

[Lord Parkin]

I don't see why India being able to pick Mansa or not has any real bearing on Stonehenge. Spiritual doesn't really make you much more or less likely to grab a religion, nor much more or less likely to go for an early religion. It's Mysticism that counts more there.

[Lord Parkin]

Did some test sims... seems spending a turn prebuilding a mine and then improving Sheep -> Deer gets us off to a faster start regardless of anything else. A couple of options beyond that...

- Stonehenge focus: Stonehenge on T31, going AH -> Mysticism -> BW -> Wheel. Leaves us without a second Worker for ages, minimum Settler time T37 if we delay a second Worker even longer. Not particularly desirable, though leaves 3/5 forests intact.

>> Link to save <<

Screenie:

- Settler-Stonehenge focus: Settler on T32 and Stonehenge on T36, going AH -> BW -> Mysticism -> Wheel. Early second worker (at size 2), early settler (at size 3), decent time on Stonehenge. However chops all 5 of the forests in our BFC, so leaves none for the Oracle. Does get us off to a roaring start though.

>> Link to save <<

Screenie:

Note that this probably isn't where we'll want our second city, it's just a placeholder since we know nothing else about the map yet.

Hmm, early Pottery would be quite good, though it's off the track from everything else. It's a pain having the Workers unable to do much besides chopping forests and mining at this late stage.

[Mortius]

I don't see why India being able to pick Mansa or not has any real bearing on Stonehenge. Spiritual doesn't really make you much more or less likely to grab a religion, nor much more or less likely to go for an early religion. It's Mysticism that counts more there.

It has.
Start thinking like Mansa of India

Financial, Spiritual
Techs: Mysticism, Mining
Fast Workers + 7 forests to chop

How can you make your civ rolling?

1. You are behind at the start, because you have the longest path to pastured Sheep =>Hunting=>Animal Husbandry.
2. You have plenty of work to do, to not stay behind to the first Settler, and every next.
3. Building Stonehenge from the behind position is at least hard, making your civ even more behind. But probably can still be viable, if you have no better way to make your borders pop.
4. As a Spiritual Civ yourself, you have many incentives (monasteries, cheap temples a little step further to Priesthood) to go early religion, like Meditation just after Bronze Working, or even before.
5. With a religion and monasteries to pop your borders you don't bother with Stonehenge anymore.

[Mortius]

Team Troll chose Suryavarman (Expansive, Creative)

What it means?
Of all 4 opponents, 3 are not interested in Stonehenge at all (are creative, or Inca). The last one is in no position to even try it (Pacal of Vikings with Hunting and Fishing starting techs).

We can build our Stonehenge whenever we want, without constraining our economy

BTW: Concerning Stonehenge build. I have done some testings, and with the most economy friendly build, we can have Stonehenge on 47 turn, still having 3 workers and 3 total cities.
With that build, I used only 4 chops (2 for the first Settler, and 2 for Stonehenge itself) leaving us with at least 3 forests in our Capital and in a wonderful position for a quick Oracle (or even a religion) grab

I will present the results of my tests tomorrow.
Today it's little to late already (around midnight now in Europe).

[Lord Parkin]

Team Troll chose Suryavarman (Expansive, Creative)

What it means?
Of all 4 opponents, 3 are not interested in Stonehenge at all (are creative, or Inca).

This is indeed excellent news.

The last one is in no position to even try it (Pacal of Vikings with Hunting and Fishing starting techs).

We can build our Stonehenge whenever we want, without constraining our economy

I wouldn't necessarily agree on this. Still, the Vikings are probably unlikely to try for it when their only other competitor is an Industrious team with a captain rather well known for his taste in wonders. Especially if they're focussing on the Great Lighthouse.

BTW: Concerning Stonehenge build. I have done some testings, and with the most economy friendly build, we can have Stonehenge on 47 turn, still having 3 workers and 3 total cities.
With that build, I used only 4 chops (2 for the first Settler, and 2 for Stonehenge itself) leaving us with at least 3 forests in our Capital and in a wonderful position for a quick Oracle (or even a religion) grab

Did you chop outside the capital? Those numbers don't quite add up to me, as we only have 5 forests in our capital's BFC. Did you remember to delete forests which spawned throughout the game? I noticed that one or two extra forests spawned in a few of my tests around the capital - I removed these in the World Builder as they happened since we obviously can't count on that happening in the real game.

Still, I agree that we can probably go for a much more relaxed Stonehenge build now. I'll do some testing and see if I can improve at all on 3 cities + 3 workers + Stonehenge by T47.