[SPOILERS] Oxy and suttree save the day, again!

[HBHR]

Sury of Bizantyum is perhaps the strongest combo until now. Amazing and powerfull UU and good start for sure by CRE/EXP traits, i thinks they i'll be really competitive.
Isa of Incas is good, but i personally rank SPI trait very low

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Spiritual is very underrated. The ability to swap between caste and slavery in the mid game and to swap without GA in the late game is very powerful. 40 hammer temples aren't too shabby either. SPI is pretty hard to play though, you need to synch up your whip cycles with time spent in caste and follow a stricter and more focused early game research path.

I also like Sury of Byzantium, it does a good job of mitigating the "riskiness" of the Byzantium pick. The problem many encounter when picking Byzantium is the truly atrocious starting techs drastically slow down the early game. Obviously, it's all gravy once you get to guilds while being in a decent position, but that's easier said than done. The civ is a nightmare to play from a metagaming standpoint, many people adopt the stance of attacking when it's weak(early game) and not when they are strong(mid game). Sury gives the civ a stronger start, which solves a lot of these problems. That said, it depends on the starting position. A faster worker doesn't exactly help a lot when all he can do is build road for 10 turns.

I still like Pacal of North America more

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Whoa, a flurry of activity overnight. Good to see.

Team Orgynized picks Netherlands.

Bowsling and Aivoturso, you're up.

Interesting

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Just...two...more...

[yuris125]

Can you remind me why we want Native America please? Apart from reasonable starting techs, I don't see anything good about that civ

[suttree]

Agr/Fishing is the optimal set of start techs. The turn advantage from the optimal set of start techs is greater than the turn advantage from any UU/UB. NA is the best Agr/Fishing civ available.

edit: Oxy also made the point that a counter to AGR Praets is useful diplomatically, though I don't imagine NA would be worth picking for that alone.

[suttree]

BTW I looked back at that micro plan that I sketched out, and riverside sheep is 3/0/1 not 2/0/1
The corrected plan

Code:

t00,1   0f/t  5h/t  0f   0h(WORKER=60)    WORK PLAINS HILL
t12,1   3f/t  1h/t  0f   0h(WB=30)        WORKER FINISHED, WORK SHEEP
t16,1   5f/t  2h/t  12f  4h               WHEAT FARMED,WORK WHEAT
t18,2   6f/t  2h/t  0f   8h               GROW, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP
t21,2   8f/t  2h/t  18f  14h              SHEEP PASTURED, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP

t22,3   6f/t  5h/t  2f   16h              GROW, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/PH FOREST
t24,3   8f/t  2h/t  14f  26h              WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/RAW FISH
t26,4   10f/t 5h/t  4f   0h               GROW,WB,GH MINED, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH/GHMINE
T33,4   SETTLER

Note that we can switch the third pop around t22-t26 depending on what you want to emphasize. The plan above gives max beakers by working the PH forest then the raw fish. You won't get the settler any faster, but it might be better to bank food or hammers depending on the plan post t33. Once the game is live I'll add tech progression for AH->Mining->BW.

If Oxy has time to check in his sim, I'll format nicely for the turn player.

[suttree]

If an enemy scout comes visiting, you might have to delay things by two turns to build a warrior.

[yuris125]

Agr/Fishing is the optimal set of start techs.

Why? We're starting Worker first. We won't get any use out of Fishing until it's finished, and Fishing research takes less time than Worker build. The tech Agri is paired with doesn't matter that much, and I'd rather have a tech worth more beakers (Mining or Wheel)

Is China still available? If it is, I think it's the best choice, it allows to go for BW right after Fishing -> early chops and Slavery

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, I think it's pretty risky and bordering on stupid to not get a warrior out before the first settler. For one turn, our civilization with two cities will have no military units to protect it. I think it's up to HBHR, as the main diplomat, to decide if we should get one out or not. If he thinks he can use diplomacy to keep our cities safe(remember, barbs won't enter our borders and the settler doesn't need an escort) then we can consider it. A warrior does annoyingly delay the settler by two whole turns.

Also, we're currently up in the snake pick. I think we're all agreed on Native America and I really want to get this game rolling, so HBHR feel free to post in the tech thread any time confirming our pick.