The Orc Clan: Following the Princess Rule

[Ichabod]

Don't worry too much about the demos, Ravus. There's nothing you can do about them while playing the orcs. Your time to shine will come after masonry/warrens and the AC rise.

You cannot let your score gets too high, anyway (how about that for an excuse :neenernee?).

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Turn 48: Feeling Sheepish[/SIZE]

The Squad moves closer and at the time for some reason I wanted to found in the spot that got both the Rice and Horses. While this made sense at the time the lack of trade routes HURTS.

It's silly decisions like this which I need my Horde Aid for. I'm sure someone would have talked some sense into me if i'd been able to keep up to date.

The Goblin Continues to pasteurise the Sheep and the city builds the Granary and should be able to switch over to either a warrior or a monument when finished.

My GNP continues to look horrible.

Really Horrible.

[Ravus Sol]

Don't worry too much about the demos, Ravus. There's nothing you can do about them while playing the orcs. Your time to shine will come after masonry/warrens and the AC rise.

You cannot let your score gets too high, anyway (how about that for an excuse :neenernee?).

Thanks Ichabod. Yeah It does get bad. However it looks to be improving by turn 55. Combined with the soon Mysticism and the fact I have three cities the rush Eldar councils with while teching to Education and hopefully bulbing Runes and I feel confident I can make a good looking comeback mid-game.

And yes I don't want to get high! That would really ruin my "Burn the world" plan!

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Turn 49-50: Never forget... Something[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Turn 49[/SIZE]

Ahhhhh. an Elephant. The most useless of animals. I have nothing to fear from them at least.

My land area is still nice and high even with a sea placed city (with no second border) and before settling Broken Entwash.

Does the 30,000 Land area indicate that someone doesn't even have a second city? Because that would suck.

For them.

Not for us.

[SIZE="4"]Turn 50[/SIZE]

So shall we talk?

I was expecting to get a fun conversation out of this move. But the back and forth that ensued was quite different then I imagined. Although I shouldn't underestimate Bombadils thoughts on this matter.

This is a leader that's been rushed so often it's become a kind of Realms beyond in-joke. Is there really any price that would be too much for him to NOT get rushed?

I should probably just post the conversation.

This is the positioning that I now regret. But I have allready founded at this point. I'm sure you can see the plan. Get a strong city quickly by sacrificing the easy trade. It is only in hindsight that I believe the trade off was not worth it.

THIRTY SEVEN? 37? GNP?

Bloody hell.

Of course it shows what i've sacrificed into production and growth with the jump from my score and the next "worst"

A lot of difference.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Elvish has no word for Duplicity [/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "What the hell is that" Conversational Opening[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Green"]Ravus,

Mr. Yellow has approached me from the north.

I would be happy to direct contact between the two of you, if that is
something you'd like.

I can't help but notice that your only wolf-rider appears to be
awfully close to Caras Galadhon. I don't suppose he's come all this
way for a nice chat has he?

I'm not much for map information right now, but if it's your own
safety you're concerned with, I'd be perfectly happy to sign a long
term deal (Through T150, more if you want it) and a settling agreement
giving you all the land south of the clams in the lake that I am sure
you must be able to see at this point (or relative to your wolf-rider,
everything 4+ tiles south of it).

What say ye?

-Sareln-[/COLOR]

The Stick Worg Rider works well. Suspiciously too well if I am quite honest. A single Worg Rider and suddenly I'm being handed a NAP to a time of 150+ and all of the lands south of the Misty Mountains... Yes that's about what I was hoping for but this is kind of quick.

Sareln can out tech me, we both know this. His Forests also make him a pain to conquer. After having a look I realise the site he is talking about means he would get the "pink dot" spot I was eyeing up earlier. A nice little settling site i've taken to calling "Moria". It has 4 resources in it's BFC and can be quite a powerful defensive area.

I wonder if the reason Sareln is being so compliant is not just my own Stick on his borders but the Horselords flexing their own muscle.

My reply probably comes of a bit too... well a bit too sleazy evil. But hey, it just flowed that day.

[SIZE="4"]The "Don't worry we can all be chums" Reply[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Orange"]Dear Tom Bombadil,

The idea that the cute and lovable fluffy could be here for anything but a nice chat is horrible. Fluffy the wolf rider is a poor soul just searching for his lost Ring. But it is heartening that you so quickly go out of your way to make sure Isengard feels 'safe'. I suppose you must think that a lesser person could have been worried at your first city having been settled in their general direction.

In that regard, what do you mean by your idea of land division? I assume it could mean that you wish for the spot in the misty mountains that claims the pig, incense, clam & reagents? It is a very nice spot isn't it. I've taken to calling that area of the Misty Mountains, Moria. It's quite the potential stronghold. In fact whichever of us claims the spots along the whole mountain ridge would be able to feel 'safe' in regards to our potential future together.

The long term deal offer (150+) is quite shocking at it's generosity. You are certainly being kind. Should I worry that your recent diplomacy with the Horselords has been less kind? I know I myself seek out more likeable allies when beset upon by less civilized peoples.

Perhaps you should describe your own thoughts on Mr Yellow along with Direction to his units or cities while I ponder your generous offer.

Ravus, The Red Wizard of Isengard[/COLOR]

The First paragraph is all about the light teasing to switch things back to a friendly dialogue while also trying to put Sareln on the Defensive. It is true he settled towards me even if I can logically see why (Grain and Calender resource in first border).

I try to clarify if Moria is the spot he wants for himself and waving everything else to me. I wonder if it's greed that makes me want it? The deal is good and would allow me to relax and then expand and pull off my Armageddon play. But the spot he's talking about is VERY nice. And we both know it.

Even if I do think the deal is good theres no reason to play things up and see if I can't get him sweeten the deal and agree to research the tech to allow us to open borders so that I don't have to waste beakers on it.

The Mountain Cities would be the Defensive spots between our nation though. Annoyingly the Eastern part of the Misty Mountains has NOTHING. Unless there is something hiding in the mist then any city over there would be useless.

The asking for information about Mr Yellow is blunt. But there is no need to be subtle about that sort of thing and it can allways be useful to be thought of as blunt so you can get away with more stuff later if needed.

[SIZE="4"]The "Laying cards on the table-but wait is that an ace up your sleeve?" Reply[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Green"]Dear Ravus,

I've had some bad previous experience with Wolf-Riders and Clansmen,
it's made me a touch nervous, and a bit paranoid when I see them. I
know it's nothing to worry about, by the numbers, but I figured I'd
write you anyways, since Mr. Yellow just found me and I had something
*new* to share.

Mr. Yellow has come from the north, with a single warrior. It seems
he has been having as much trouble with animals as you and I have. If
he aims to be threatening, I'm not seeing it to be honest. Looking at
his graphs, compared to you or me he lacks food and production, though
his commerce is respectable. He claims to have met Mist, of the
Bannor, though I've not heard back from him yet. His units are
currently North of Rivendell, a distance of 9 tiles straight. I could
pass on a message to make sure that both his scout and fluffy move
around my lands in the correct direction for a meetup if you wish.

(If I had to predict his numbers, I would say ~17 for crop yield, and
it looks like he can spike to 20, 28 GNP running at max right now, and
~13 Production, but can peak right below your own peak. His capital
is size 5, named MegaYellow. His power numbers imply only warriors,
around 6 or so depending upon his population, he's lost at least 3
over time assuming that's the only way his power can dip. Fair
warning, I'm not the best at reading these graphs precisely since I
don't keep turn to turn records on them).

I see no reagents in the misty mountains, though I'll take your word
that they are there. I would be happy to share the bounty of the
mountains with you, if that is what you desire. At a certain point,
one of us will settle Moira. Given it's proximity to Rivendell (7
squares or so), I'd rather it be me, and am perfectly willing to pay
for the right with guarantees, gold, and/or resources.

I am generous with you, Ravus, because I trust you to hold to your
agreements. I have no quarrel, and do not wish to have one, with the
clan, and I think we could be good long-term partners for each other,
with ample space between us and a natural border.

-Sareln-[/COLOR]

Okay so reply wise?

If he's being honest he views me as someone who will keep his word and stick to agreements... Either he didn't read my PBEM IV thread where I casually talk about willingness to break NAPs "If Necessary", or he's trying to be coy.

Although I do prefer to keep my word. It's better to have a reputation for doing so after all.

Hmmmmmm

His "By the numbers comment" Is amusing. It's at the top if you missed it. He knows I only have one Worg Rider. It's pretty noticable in the Power Graph and you can easily spot I only have one. I like that he pointed out that he knew. But did he know I knew he knew? (English needs better words when talking about double-think.)

The information he provides on Mr Yellow is all good and useful. It also tries to dismiss him as a major threat. The fact that he does this and then still offers to sweaten our deal makes me think he really is trying to turn me into his long term ally here.

There seems to be a kind of accepted meme on this site that the first person you meet is either you first rush target, enemy for life or long term ally. With the Rush opportunity gone... (Damn you animals! Too many bears and not enough wolves.) We do have an easily forged alliance possibility due to the natural border.

The problem is how this guy is going to want to win the game. And if he's allready got a NAP with the Horselords. If he does he could just peace build to victory. I need more information so it's time to bait the hook...

I'm sure you are wondering what I replied to this? Well the answer is I didn't. I got busy very quickly and it's been a few days since this reply came my way. I need to reply tonight which doesn't give any time to get thoughts of anyone still reading.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Elvish has no word for Punctuality[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "Why haven't you replied yet-What are you plotting" Prompt/s[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Green"]Ravus,

If you continue to follow my borders north you should meet the Hippus
scout shortly. I will send him an e-mail directing him to follow my
border south. It will be about 9 tiles of total movement, so a meetup
could be effected in 3 turns or slightly less if he moves correctly.
I will let you know if he responds positively.

In other news, River of Blood scuttled a decent micro plan and has
vaulted Mackoti to the top of the scoreboard. Given the point gain
this makes me suspect he has 3 cities down now. What do you think?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"]Mr. Yellow has fortified his warrior to heal after a recent battle
with animals. If you carry on with current movement you should see
the Seven Pines, and then Mr. Yellow's warrior, 2 more turns of
movement.

Given any more thought to my long-term deal offers?

-Sareln-[/COLOR]

Yeah, I should reply shouldn't I?

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Elvish has no word for Late, Horses have no words for... well they have no words.[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "Dancing around the subject" coy return[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Orange"]To the Peaceful Tom Bombadil,

I apologise for the delay in response. Times have been busy and your offer made me want to get some feedback from my Horde Advisors before pressing forward. I will also be totally honest and say I also wanted to have communication with our new Horselord Rival to better weigh your international presence. You are, after all, still holding yourself firmly at the top of the scoreboard even after the Vampires stole the Blood from the Cities.

I have not yet received a reply from the Horselord but I hope I will before our exchange comes to a close. You seem to want to draw us together and I would know not just how you would treat me... but also how you would treat the others. I haven't mentioned anything about our evolving talks. Yet. If we did draw up some arrangement would you want to keep it low-key or be upfront about it?

But let me cut to the chase. We both know that the first person you meet can turn into ones greatest enemy or most trusted ally. The land between us divides naturally and our talks are both interesting and amusing (well amusing on my end at least). The question is what level of co-operation you want? What level of openness, if any, between our two nations? I don't want to sign a long term deal that just allows you to build in peace while quietly directing the more Aggressive Horselords and Men of Bannor to my door. Nor, I am sure, Do you want a deal that allows me to swallow up all manner of rivals while leaving you a small nation just waiting to be slaughtered. Long term I hope to use my Warren doubled Settlers to make a huge land grab on this large map, Having a peaceful and dependable border would be helpful during that time, more so if that nation is both friendly and trusted.

The Reagents near Moria are 1SE of the Clams. Just on the other side of the mountain. It is a perfect city spot. Made all the more tempting because the eastern part of the mountain range appears to have ZERO resources. Meaning that any city placed there would be a cash drain. I do agree that the spot is closer to you then me, But it has such lush bounty and the potential deal we could draw up would leave it SAFELY in your hands for a long time. This is made worse by the large lack of commerce resources in my own land. I have an abundance of Grain and Animal resources that I will be able to eventually trade but little in Calendar ones.

You mention that you are willing to pay with "guarantees, gold, and/or resources" in exchange for the Moria site and a pleasant land division agreement. My personal view is that gold and resources are pedestrian compared to a guarantee from a man with the morals to uphold his word. Ideas that spring to mind are; some temple spreading late game, you researching the open borders technology so that we can have trade routes with each other etc. I'm sure I could demand more but that would darken our talks of a future working relationship wouldn't it.

Ravus, The Red Wizard[/COLOR]

So yeah, I ask little but imply lots on things I want to know about and state things bluntly on subjects that mean less to me.

The thing about the Vamp Blood sucking is coming up. I still haven't put up the last 5 turns and the Vamps use their worldspell to take 2 population of every single city. Ruining a few microplans. but with the Elves high food they recover quicker then most.

I try to only imply things in this letter because It's more interesting to see which implications a correspondence chooses to answer or ignore. Hopefully the next reply will be as telling as the last one. While I can think of ways that a alliance could help me, I don't know exactly how it would benefit him. Unless his land is a lot more defend-able then first appears... Of course he could try to gently back out from a possible alliance to a NAP by pretending to need time to "weigh me up" or something similar. A NAP works better if he is planning to backstab or wishes to play the diplomatic game and turn people against each other so he can tech/build in peace.

[SIZE="4"]The "Can I get under your skin or do you allready have someone you want to butcher" Opening[/SIZE]

The Horselords Warrior was wounded and hiding near Rivendel when a Worg Rider appeared from the East. The two creatures appeared strange to his eyes. In the Horse lands their steeds were as noble as the riders, while this Worg was as potentially vicious as the Goblin upon it. He was Clothe'd in Red and White and once catching the warriors eyes uttered a greeting in a guttural tongue that was unrecognisable

"Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."

Darkness crept upon the land as the woods grew silent. The words themselves seemed heavy enough to warp away the light within the hearts of all men.

Eventually the Worg Rider presented the Warrior with a gift to take back to his Horselord master. a Palantír, a magical artifiact that would allow the two peoples to communicate. From the misty orb came a deep pre-recorded voice;

[COLOR="Orange"]"Greetings Horselord Yellow, the lesser son of greater sires

Late is the hour of our meeting. I, Ravus the Red Wizard, greet you in the Name of Isengard and the Clan of White Flame. Recently the Wizards of Grey and White battled over the future of our land. They both were petty and short sighted, spouting philosophies of good and evil, when all that matters is POWER, and who wields it. Thus in their foolishness, they were struck down. Now Isengard is ready to claim it's rightful place as a great power of this land.

As you can see we have allready mastered the ways of riding and are expanding further everyday. Allready the cities of Fangorn and Entwash have been founded in the south although we lost many good Orcs and Goblins along the way. Bombadil's Elves tell us that you too have had trouble with animals of the wilds, this combined with the size of the land available for exploration makes forays into the unexplored lands more dangerous then ever.

Though by now you must be wondering where exactly we are. Isengard lies far to the south. Past Rivendel and the Misty Mountains. Or have the elves allready told you this information? How has your communication with these tree huggers gone? They passed along to us the fact that you allready have contact with the Men of Bannor/Gondor, perhaps you would be willing to point us in their direction? Although we would prefer directions to the dark power that sucked the life out of our very cities. That kind of power needs to be dealt with.

-

Getting to the important matters though, Isengard can offer little because of the distance between our two nations. All we have to offer is an olive branch and perhaps information exchange. After all, knowing is half the battle. Knowing where the eyes of the Riders rest for future aggression is perhaps worth even more then half... Knowing what religion or land you wish could be even more informative.

Land around our own Capital has been quite harsh. Mostly plains and minimal Commerce resources. If not for the Animals and Grain life would be unliveable here in the south. The elves have commented that this is the same for them, but of course, they have little to worry about. Soon their forests will become Ancient and be lush enough to help support the elves with food as well as production. Is your own land just as bad or did you get lucky with more Grassland then most?

Overall I have said what I wish to, do you have anything in particular you wish to ask? Or anything you wish to share without prompting?

But no matter what you eventually decide to respond with I warn you thus. If you ever come across a small halfing with a Ring. Turn him over to me immediately.

Ravus - The Red Wizard "[/COLOR]

So this has a lot of undertones. But the most fun? The Lat-Glob message from the first letter of ever paragraph is a word from the Black Tongue of Mordor meaning "You Filth" Unless I translated wrong. But I figure that's a fun enough secret opening.

The Gutteral Tongue greeting is also Black tongue and most people should get it. The Opening about "The lesser son of greater sires" is the greeting Sauruman gives to the leader of Rohan so I stole it for my own. I'm wondering what response this will provoke if any. My information on Mr Yellow indicates he probably won't be as much fun to converse with as Sareln Bombadil, But we can see.

None of the Information I give away or hint at or lie about is important. But anything I get in return could be. Mostly I want to know his future plans, but I doubt i'll get it. I also would find his views on the Elves useful. Any information on Gondor could also be fun.

I hope he plays along with the Riders of Rohan Angle but he might not do.

Oh well. Lets wait and see if these responses have caused me to commit political suicide

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]When you ask a question and get the reply that, up is purple and down is cow, then you have to worry.[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "I'm going to ignore your whole email" handwave[/SIZE]

As you looked out of the dark tower admiring the scenery, a meekly looking goblin carefully approached you with a peculiar device with unknown origins in the palm of his stretched out hand. Clearly one of the messengers sent towards the newly discovered foreigners, you picked it up and examined it, wondering what this could possibly mean. As you pressed down a rather revealing button a pre-recorded message began to play:

[COLOR="Lime"]"Doo Doo Doo!

Hello and welcome to Horselord Yellow & Co.'s customer service. As the biggest and most notorious mercenary company and horsebreeders of the whole continent, we can provide a whole slew of deals covering the shady yet profitable buisness that is war. If you're having trouble getting the pokey stick in reach of your target, then for the right price we can certainly help getting it through the last mile.

As our services covers an adequate amount of fields, please specify your needs.
If there's some pesky nasties that needs to be eliminated, press 1.
If you are in need of much needed auxiliaries to bolster the defences, press 2.
If you need a certain distraction, like a suitable raid in someone's backyard, press 3.
If you'd like to exchange information of the terrain and the neighbouring locals, press 4.
If you'd like to buy a breed of our magnificent horses, press 5
If you'd like to talk about our magnificent breed of horses, press 5
If there is something else other than above that we can be of help about, press 6
If you for some reason find us to be a target of assimilation, bring it.

These choices is not limited to once at a time and multiple or even all can be picked if wanted.

We hope to talk buisness in the future. Any potential money is in safe hands here as we will make sure our services provide 100% customer satisfaction. Thank you for taking the time listening to this and we would love to hear from you again soon."[/COLOR]

(Also i would prefer to talk future diplomacy in the chat on gmail, if possible )

Ummm...

Yeah.

Mixing in a little roleplay and description in a letter is all fair game in these thing. But this is a reply not an opening letter. I'm honestly wondering if Mr Yellow is purposely trying to appear obtuse. He ignored everything I wrote. Everything. Both outright stated, asked or implied.

No information offered in polite exchange for those I gave freely;

• New Orc city information
  
• Directions to our nation
  
• Small information on the Elvish nation
  
• A desire to find the Vampire and give retribution for their worldspell
  
• Bad land for myself and the elves
  
• Lack of commerce resources
  
• Abundance of grain and animal resources
  

The information I asked about;

• Wether he is also having trouble with animals
  
• Whether his land is also sparse
  
• The informational exchange with the elves
  
• Directions to the Bannor
  

Information I imply I'd like to know;

• Hippus future military targets
  
• Hippus future technological targets
  

What do I get in return? Information about the Hippus wanting to play mercenary, that they are willing to exchange information that i've already given bits of, and that Mr Yellow would prefer for Diplomacy to be done in gmail chat. Well I'm sure it would be better but with my timezone being in Australia I am normally asleep when people are awake and visa-versa. Anyway should I be offended at this response? If I thought of Mr yellow as good at diplomacy this would feel like a slap to the face. A complete dismissal of my own attempts to direct the conversation and simply restarting on his terms. Even with how bad I "think" he is this is a level beyond. This is an appalling load of nothing that's not even hidden in fancy words. If I was next to him and planning to attack SOMEONE I'd start contemplating him as a target.

Okay so think.

Why do this.

You are a Rush nation with the ultimate speed and aggressive tendencies. You need a target. What you'd like is both a target and a third party paying you to kill that target. Plus a fourth party to pay you not to kill them. You make contact with an empire nation initially and then a economic nation second and finally come across another potential military nation fourth. You've had a type of contact with the Empire, pleasant/cordial contact with the Economic power and then you dismiss the military nation mostly in the opening exchange.

You do this because... You don't need them. You don't fear them. You already have designated them as a target? You have either targeted the close Empire nation as a victim and have made friends with the economic power and thus NEED to dismiss the rival military power so that the economic power favours you. Or you have befriended the close Empire nation and have been paid to attack someone. The Economic power can be left to build up so that more can be stolen come war but the Military rival power should be knocked out quickly so that your alliance can prosper? Or perhaps you wish to take the Economic power and this new Military power is a distraction that you wish to dismiss?

...

That whole thought process still seems off. Like I'm missing something. Of course there is the possibility that Mr Yellow didn't consciously or unconsciously mean to dismiss me and that he thinks this is amusing and is literally that bad at reading the tone of a informational exchange email. Of course maybe I was right and Mr Yellow just doesn't like me. I do tend to get under some peoples skin.

Either way its a sad event. I had been hoping to get the Hippus on my side. Two Military Nations could have held the board initially when working together. Especially if I spread my religions to him to help out while he ran raids and I came up with the capture force. A brief overview but the idea is sound. But even if Mr Yellow is willing to work together and this is a faux pa it doesn't bode well for future diplomatic workings.

*sigh*

I'll let it rest for the day. I will reply but I just need to decide whether to let this slide by and let him control the flow of the conversation or whether to be blunt and reply harshly.

I miss Sareln's exchanges. They have more fun undertones and implications. I wish I could get directions to the Bannor to hit them up for information. I'm sure a short conversation with them would let me see hints of whether the Hippus-Bannor relationship is antagonistic, Cordial or friendly. The Hippus are apparantly north of the Elves (That's the direction the warrior came from according to Sareln) So the Bannor could be East or West.

[Ilios]

I agree that mostly roleplay answers to an initial greeting can be very annoying.

Oh, and it's faux pas. (great expression by the way)

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Elvish does have a word for lawyer. It's Elf.[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "Look at us, arn't we good at working together, no of course i'm not planning to have won by turn 160" dialogue[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Green"]Ravus,

My apologies for the delayed response, I've been putting most of my
free (game) time towards getting the Erebus in the Balance mod prepped
for release. Some folks wanted to actually *play* with it, so I felt
obligated to scrub out some of the worst of my balancing mistakes.

I hope that you've managed to get some tidings out of Mr. Yellow at
this point? He was perfectly friendly in his opening but he doesn't
appear to be a very talkative character this time around. Perhaps he's
trying a different tack after his diplomacy with Thoth in FfH PBEM
III. Regardless, I've not heard anything new from him in some time
now.

As to how closely I envision our nations working together, I think
quite closely. I believe that we could both profit greatly from
securing our mutual border and then being able to face outwards from
there. As we move towards the mid and late game, any successful
strategy will need to contend with the power of the vampires, a
crusading bannor, or an unrushed Amurite. I don't know what you think
about it, but I think our chances of doing well in that phase of the
game could be dramatically improved by working together.

Let's start putting together a framework for Moria.

For starters, I don't need confidentiality clauses, generally. If such
clauses would make you feel more comfortable signing such deals, I'd
be happy to add them in. It might be prudent however, that if we agree
on more longterm cooperative agreements beyond an NAP, settling
agreement, and resource trades, that we keep the details of our full
cooperation secret from the other players.

For Moria, I'm willing to offer 1 happy resource of your choice
(incense or silks) and 1 health resource of your choice (wheat, pigs,
deer), for the duration of our NAP. It should be possible to set up
that trade as soon as we have a trade-route. This would be alongside a
settling agreement that gives you the rest of the land south of the
Moria site with one exception. There is another clam resource 3-West
(Left) and 2-South (Down) of the clam from the Moria site. Is there
land south of it that is able to claim it? If not, there is land North
of it that I'd like to retain settling privileges over that I've named
clam-point. It's a filler city, but a food resource and some coastal
might be worth settling later on for shipbuilding purposes.

I would like to establish a bi-directional map-sharing compact. After
either of us discovers cartography, we share maps every turn for the
duration of our NAP. I am teching towards Fellowship of Leaves, so
while your early scouting will be better than mine, once a handful of
hawks and hunters are in play, I should bring more than enough map
data to the table to compensate you for your early knowledge. We will
open borders as soon as Cartography is researched. If we wish to trade
maps with other players, we must consult with the other first.

For both of these two deals, I would like to attach an NAP until T160.
To be honest, I view it as quite likely that we will end up extending
it to T200 rather quickly if we both like the form of our early
cooperation.

So to sum up:

1. NAP to T160
2. Moria and perhaps Clam Point to Sareln, Ravus gets everything south
of that. Sareln will provide Ravus with his choice of one of (Incense,
Silks) and one of (Pigs, Deer, Wheat) for the duration of the NAP.
3. Open Borders
4. Bi-directional map trades

How does that sound?[/COLOR]

Here is the much more interesting Elvish Response. The dismissal of Mr Yellow is amusing. It could be true, it could not. It makes me want to try and continue the dialogue with Mr yellow to see what more I can pry out from him. Even with this dismissal the fact that he talks about an "un-rushed" amurite shows that he also suspects the Hippus are going to target one of their 3 neighbours.

The Moria offer is... reasonable? which I suppose is only to be expected. With the back and forth that we have had and Sarelns growing power rating (probably in response to realising he is between the Orcs and Hippus) he doesn't have to try and appear more pleasing, like some nations try to do when faced with a rush nation.

With the map being so large and Sarlen being so much more easy to converse with I am tempted to accept the offer (after trying to wrangle in another deal so I don't look like a pushover). With the map this size and barren I can get most power from a Religious Runes empowered land grab around turn 75. I have enough visable space for a dozen cities, more in the mist to the west and the island to the east (and then any other land I can get to from boats). With my plan needing me to have lots of land and production to help ramp up the AC this could be seen as a good thing. The only reason I hesitate is that the elves are allready in the lead and will only snowball from here. Especially on this map which lacks food and they can have Ancient Forests everywhere.

If the Hippus are targeting the Bannor and then I sign away my threat potential to the Elves they can happily go builder for the next 100 turns... Then again. If the Elves sign away their threat potential I can go expansionist. I suppose it would be a game of vertical vs Horizontal Growth.

The Idea about constant map trading is... new. I don't recall something exactly like that being offered before. Hawk use and a map trade maybe. Notice however he doesn't state that he WOULD research cartograpy for map trading. Only that once one of us has it we can start doing that.

Sareln is good enough at diplomacy that it's only now I realise he doesn't answer the concern I raised about how a NAP could allow him to tech to victory. He merely tries to distract and sidetrack that thought by pointing out the threat of the Vampires, Bannor and Amurites. It's emails like this which make it more tempting to throw my lot in with the elves even though the risk and potential pay off could be better trying to remain neutral.

Also I think he is overestimating my mapping capabilities. The lack of lairs has ramped up the animals to annoying levels and I have STILL yet to see a barbarian unit or city so that I can pop my worldspell confident that I will get SOMETHING.