[SPOILERS] Oxy and suttree save the day, again!

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Agr/Fishing is the optimal set of start techs.

Why? We're starting Worker first. We won't get any use out of Fishing until it's finished, and Fishing research takes less time than Worker build. The tech Agri is paired with doesn't matter that much, and I'd rather have a tech worth more beakers (Mining or Wheel)

Is China still available? If it is, I think it's the best choice, it allows to go for BW right after Fishing -> early chops and Slavery

Because the worker completes eot11 and we want to go AH first to hook up the sheep. This is a surprisingly hard start to micro, any other starting techs have been shown to be subomtimal. Either they delay hooking up the fish for too long or they waste worker turns.

[yuris125]

ok, your choice sounds like you tested this thing, while my argument is based on gut feeling and dislike for a civ with no UB and almost no UU

[suttree]

The problem is the tech cost on AH. You need to research AH first in order to make optimal use of the worker by developing the riverside sheep promptly - this doesn't leave enough time to research Fishing and so hammers get wasted. Basically, we're trading the extra beakers on Mining for the extra fh/beakers from an earlier workboat. Three extra turns (at least) of working the fish vs. an undeveloped tile are worth ~6fh and 9b, greater than the difference in cost between Fishing and Mining. Chops/slavery aren't used until the settler is built (unless you want to ignore fishing all together, which is bad) and AH->Mining->BW powered by the extra commerce from the sheep/fish is sufficient. If China had a better UU/UB, I think you could make an argument. But it doesn't.

China is the only alternative since Agr + anything other than Fishing/Mining loses us BOTH food hammers and beakers (the big difference in turn advantage mentioned above).

Tech costs on Monarch/Large are 161b/79b/193b for AH/Mining/BW, I think? We'll need to check when the game goes live, but a quick sketch gives BW exactly when we need it, even if we only work a minimum of commerce tiles.

Code:

t00 12b  0b(AH=161)
t12 13b  144b              WORKING WILD SHEEP
t14 11b  8b(Mining=79)     AH COMPLETE, NO MORE PREREQ BONUS
t16 10b  30b               WORKING WHEAT
t18 11b  50b               WORKING WHEAT/WILD SHEEP
t21 15b  4b(BW=193)        MINING COMPLETE, WORKING WHEAT/SHEEP
t24 15b  49b               WORKING WHEAT/SHEEP/NOT FISH
t26 19b  79b               WORKING WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH/?
t33      193b              BW COMPLETE

[suttree]

Forgot, early WB is even better than 9b over three turns since the fish gives an additional prereq beaker.

[HBHR]

Thanks for your patience all, the team Eagles and Condors works on a consensus-based directly-democratic decision-making process that aims to shrink the "liminal space" that characterizes so much of modern Civ play. Once our non-hiearchical spokesperson "HBHR" has returned from his daily hemp-mixture-colon-cleanse and muesli-yoga class, we'll be sure to post our choice of civ.

Hey, this is an "all in" strategy. I'ts risky, but we want to win, so, i'll take it. If a eventuality arises, a better development help us for sure.
I'm up with Native American, and believe Kurumi also, so Oxy, Sutree, Yuris, please post in oficial thread. I can't today (right now, at least) and Kurumi is out for two weeks).

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Posted in tech thread

Suttree, I'm about to go to an 8 hour football practice, once I'm back Ill work on the micro. I'm still trying to determine the optimal tiles to work before the wheat is improved and one turn before the sheep is improved. I'd appreciate your input if you have time to spare.

Yuri, the thing about China is that I think we've determined that Agri/Fishing are the best techs for this start. Considering China is almost always picked for its techs, I think you can see why we didn't really want them. The NA UU isn't that bad either, we don't have to settle for copper to fight barbs and digs are awesome counters to axe and praet rushes. If we were picking blind we definitely would go China or Egypt, but the techs are perfect.

[HBHR]

Oxy, can you load or send us the sandbox save? i want to do some sims tonight

[suttree]

See this post for updated proposed micro. Things are kind of fixed until turn 22. You really want to work the undeveloped sheep after building the worker in order maximize commerce and to grow ASAP (t18). You also want to work the sheep with the second pop because of the commerce - any surplus food can be converted to hammers or beakers by the third citizen if that's what you want.

After t22, it's a given that you work the wheat and sheep, but you have some flexibility with the third citizen. I can list the options, but its probably not worth discussing until you have a provisional dotmap and techplan post Pottery.

LINK TO MICROPOST

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Are you sure working the unimproved sheep is a given? Working the forests gets the workboat out faster which may quickly make up the deficit in food and commerce. I don't have the hard numbers in front of me though, it may make sense to run a different sims woking the PHF for a couple turns here or there.

HBHR, I can post the save when I get home(I'm on a break right now). I was thinking of making a new one, now that we know our opponents combinations and once the game gets rolling we'll have updated terrain anyway.

[suttree]

Here are the two approaches for comparision, with the micro t22/23 onward directed at early WB for max food.
Growing late twice for the early WB costs 2fh and 6b. One turn earlier WB gives 2fh and 4b (prereq bonus) over an undeveloped tile. Net loss of two beakers to be anal.

My actual thought process:
Why did I say sheep is given? At size 3 we can produce 5h/t. That means a "hammer first" plan needs to convert 1-5 food to hammers to get the workboat out 1 turn earlier, 6-10 food to hammers for 2 turns earlier etc. PLUS it needs to make up for the lost fh from slow growth. From the detailed micro, it turns out we're at the upper part of this range, but even without knowing that, a quick eyeball suggests it isn't possible to speed the workboat by more than a single turn. The cost of delayed growth was always going to cancel that out, never mind lost beakers.

HAMMERS FIRST

Code:

t00,1   0f/t   5h/t  0f   0h(WORKER=60)    WORK PLAINS HILL
t12,1   2f/t   2h/t  0f   0h(WB=30)        WORKER FINISHED, WORK GRASS FOREST
t15,1   1f/t   3h/t  6f   6h               WORK GH FOREST
t16,1   5f/t   2h/t  7f   9h               WHEAT FARMED,WORK WHEAT

t19,2   5f/t   3h/t  0f   15h              GROW, WORK WHEAT/GRASS FOREST
t21,2   8f/t   2h/t  10f  21h              SHEEP PASTURED,WORK WHEAT/SHEEP

t23,3   6f/t   5h/t  2f   25h              GROW, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/PH FOREST
t24,3   11f/t  2h/t  8f   0h(WARRIOR=15)   WB, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH
t26,4   10f/t  5h/t  4f   0h(SETTLER),4h   GROW, GH MINED, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH/GHMINE
t33,4   SETTLER

FOOD FIRST

Code:

t00,1   0f/t  5h/t  0f   0h(WORKER=60)    WORK PLAINS HILL
t12,1   3f/t  1h/t  0f   0h(WB=30)        WORKER FINISHED, WORK SHEEP
t16,1   5f/t  2h/t  12f  4h               WHEAT FARMED,WORK WHEAT

t18,2   6f/t  2h/t  0f   8h               GROW, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP
t21,2   8f/t  2h/t  18f  14h              SHEEP PASTURED, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP

t22,3   6f/t  5h/t  2f   16h              GROW, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/PH FOREST
t24,3   7f/t  4h/t  14f  26h              WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/GH FOREST
t25,3   11f/t 2h/t  21f  0h(WARRIOR=15)   WB, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH
t26,4   10f/t 5h/t  6f   0h(SETTLER),2h   GROW,WB,GH MINED, WORK WHEAT/SHEEP/FISH/GHMINE
T33,4   SETTLER