This Time for Sure: Mardoc reprises the Lanun

[Man Behind the Mask]

Very busy yesterday, so let’s revisit the post I couldn’t make on Tuesday.

I think I'm going to loop the scout to the north or south, now that we've got another coast. Probably the south, the new scout is headed northward.

It sounds like we’re a turn or two further on, but I think I like the idea of looping the scout around looking for city sites. On the basis that the north is jungle, and the other scout is heading that way anyway, I’d probably head on a fog clearing circle back to the south.

On the dotmapping:

It’s difficult to argue against Thoth’s dotmap based on what we can see. My one reservation is on the amount of overlap. This could be my SP mindset talking, but we’re on a big map which seems to have lots of resources for health/happy, so it would be nice to have cities well spaced to use as many tiles as possible. I’d draw a different map if Mardoc let us have an up-to-date screenshot . As an example, moving the cow/rice city 1 NE (as Mardoc ponders) takes away the overlap, puts all three resources in the inner ring, and the only downside I can see is the lack of hammers until the borders pop. However, it can work the three resources and some Agrarian farms while building workers, and still leaves space for a pretty strong spot south of the dyes, and another city below that taking the deer. I’m not of any strong opinions, yet, though.

On the trait switch and arcane gameplan:

Org does seem like a reasonable choice, especially if we’re REXing like mad, and throwing up coastal island cities. We actually can’t be certain that all the land we can see is islands – it’s possible the map uses water to separate starting areas, and still puts us all on the same landmass. The fact we’ve found two “coasts” certainly doesn’t support the idea of a large “round” pangea.

Command Posts require no tech to use, just a booming econ that can spare 120 hammers

This might be me being stupid, but I thought you needed Military Strategy to unlock Command Posts. Was that changed in EitB?

Going with Mages (along with Org) is fine, as they do give you more flexibility if you can find the mana. We’ve only got sight on a couple of nodes so far, but hopefully that resolves itself. A bigger problem is that the Amurite Worldspell is in play. On the plus side, Arcane techs also fit well if we do go OO as our religion as it puts us close to Hemah.

On OO vs. Drama

I’ll probably just add to the waffle here.

The religion is roughly half the beakers it costs to get Festivals and Drama. However, we want Festivals anyway and getting to Drama first can give us a great big pile of beakers via the Great Artist. The ideal, of course, is to get to both first.

I’m inclined to think that an aggressive settling plan means we’ll need culture sooner rather than later. The cheaper tech, plus a holy city and a free Zealot (that cost less than the hammers we’d use from Drama) seem like a reasonable choice.



Oh, and I enjoyed the reference to a relatively obscure Queen song. Let’s just hope that Falamar, the Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy, turns out to be a winner.

[Mardoc]

It sounds like we’re a turn or two further on, but I think I like the idea of looping the scout around looking for city sites. On the basis that the north is jungle, and the other scout is heading that way anyway, I’d probably head on a fog clearing circle back to the south.

Ok, good, we're on the same page. Yeah, as much as I might like to meet the neighbors, finding a few more city sites before the scouts get eaten is a higher priority, I think.

Besides, we're on Monarch. There's a chance (small) that we can do both!

I’d draw a different map if Mardoc let us have an up-to-date screenshot .

Sadly, we're still on T8. Which I'm pretty sure I screenshotted.

Nevertheless, I'll give you another overview shot as soon as the turn comes around again, or maybe even two.

On the trait switch and arcane gameplan:

Org does seem like a reasonable choice, especially if we’re REXing like mad, and throwing up coastal island cities. We actually can’t be certain that all the land we can see is islands – it’s possible the map uses water to separate starting areas, and still puts us all on the same landmass. The fact we’ve found two “coasts” certainly doesn’t support the idea of a large “round” pangea.

That's true, I was assuming. I know the eastern sea is ocean, though, from the yields. In any case, I can't see us needing to know as a priority, not until we've expanded to the sea and have the chance to build some ships there. Or sail around to it, although my instinct says there's not a lot of point until the western sea is explored.

This might be me being stupid, but I thought you needed Military Strategy to unlock Command Posts. Was that changed in EitB?

Um. Now I'm going to have to test. The manual says no requirements, but it's been known to be wrong occasionally. Most civs get their first command post with the free General from MilStrat, so...it could go either way. I'll endeavor to check if Flauros or Valledia can build one on T0. Or if the civilopedia says anything relevant.

I do vaguely seem to recall seeing the Command Post on the MilStrat page in the tech tree, now that you mention it . I'd just rather if you were wrong .

Going with Mages (along with Org) is fine, as they do give you more flexibility if you can find the mana. We’ve only got sight on a couple of nodes so far, but hopefully that resolves itself. A bigger problem is that the Amurite Worldspell is in play. On the plus side, Arcane techs also fit well if we do go OO as our religion as it puts us close to Hemah.

I don't think there's any approach we can do that doesn't have problems with the Amurites. I'm pretty sure Divine magic is also cut by the Lacuna. Technically I suppose Catapults all the way might work, except I don't really like relying on regular collateral, which can die and is only str 4. And they won't work for naval warfare anyway.

What we really need is Tatan to be provoked into using it early. I'm at a loss for a way to do that without committing to war with him for life, though.

On OO vs. Drama

I’ll probably just add to the waffle here.

The religion is roughly half the beakers it costs to get Festivals and Drama. However, we want Festivals anyway and getting to Drama first can give us a great big pile of beakers via the Great Artist. The ideal, of course, is to get to both first.

I’m inclined to think that an aggressive settling plan means we’ll need culture sooner rather than later. The cheaper tech, plus a holy city and a free Zealot (that cost less than the hammers we’d use from Drama) seem like a reasonable choice.

Actually, no, I think you've convinced me that OO is a good way to go, mainly because I hadn't taken into account either Hemah or the free spreads. It might not be The One Right solution, but it's certainly could play a good role for us.

I think I tend to get too hung up on The One Right answer, when a variety pack would be a better answer.

[DaveV]

Sareln's changelog says Organized no longer gives you the ability to build Command Posts with hammers. Only buildable with Great Commanders now.

[Mardoc]

Sareln's changelog says Organized no longer gives you the ability to build Command Posts with hammers. Only buildable with Great Commanders now.

Really? I've got it open in front of me (the v7 pdf, but v8 was only bugfixes IIRC) and don't see that listed anywhere - not in the Traits section, nor in the Buildings section.

But Sareln is human, and therefore imperfect - maybe it's true without being documented

[Selrahc]

Sareln's changelog says Organized no longer gives you the ability to build Command Posts with hammers. Only buildable with Great Commanders now.

Does it? As far as I can see the only change to Command Posts has been that it gives +3xp rather than +2.

[DaveV]

I was looking at this one, which is linked (indirectly) in the first post of the FfH Paring Questions thread. Maybe he removed this nerf to Organized? Your changelog appears to be more recent than the one I checked, and I admit I haven't been closely following the changes.

[Mardoc]

I was looking at this one, which is linked (indirectly) in the first post of the FfH Paring Questions thread. Maybe he removed this nerf to Organized? Your changelog appears to be more recent than the one I checked, and I admit I haven't been closely following the changes.

Well, as long as I'm testing the question of Military Strategy, I might as well throw this variable into the pot as well. It's not like Worldbuilder takes all that long for something quick and dirty like that.

Thanks for the (possible) heads up!

[Selrahc]

Changelog does leave some stuff out. For example vampires have a buff to S6/5 that isn't documented anywhere.

[Mardoc]

Hooray, we have new info! Cause we've got the turn!

First up - yeah, I'd say the scouting definitely justifies moving the northern coastal city Fish, hills, and a 2nd ring with Cow, Rice, and Clam? Oooh yeah...

Not as urgent as the southern city, but once we have culture this'll be a site of much happiness. Pretty decent even before, because that Fish location and general coast shape means we don't lose anything if we move the cove 1N to be inside first ring culture.

And that scout will head eastward now.



Next, the middle part of the continent. I don't have any good ideas for dotmapping beyond the first ring, as yet, but perhaps one of you does?

I do notice that city1 and city2 overlap quite a bit, once we're into the 2nd ring; I'm not certain it needs to be addressed, but it does tempt 1NE a bit more.



And the eastern coast with "islands". Ok, yeah, that could be anything. The scout's going to loop around southward, to fill in another strip of our map. There's obviously good land to settle out this way, too.


In other news, the civilopedia is quite adamant that Command Posts require Organized and Military Strategy. So...I guess if we go Org we've got to pick up MilStrat too.

[Thoth]

Yeah, CPs require Mil Strat...which we want by around turn 100 anyway for the Heroic Epic. Note that the site 1 N of the Deer can produce 20h/turn at size 9 and can add more hammers easily via lumbermilled forests once our free happy cap increases.

Not sure if "Erebrus in the Nerfing" mod killed Org CPs or not. Some testing is in order.


As far as overlap goes: It's a good thing. Our cities are going to be limited by happiness rather than the number of tiles they can work. Overlap means our cities can share improved tiles in the early game. Late game, we won't have as many Uber cities, but we'll have a lot more good cities (and high yield tiles worked) early.

City 1 overlaps 3 tiles with the Capital....two cottages and a wines that city 1 can work while the Cap works other good tiles. Once the cap grows enough it can steal those tiles back.

City 1 and city 2 share a lot of land tiles, but city 2 can work a pile of coast tiles and borrow one of city 1's mines at need.

The better the land, the tighter you want your city spacing. Tight spacing means more good tiles worked sooner.

Not every city needs to be a superstar.

As far as City 4 goes, if we put it in the original location we can build another city 1 NW of the Cows. It moves the Fish to second ring, but we should have OO long before then. That would give city 4 Rice, a cove and borrowable Pigs available without a border pop + Clams available with a border pop.