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[EitB LVII] Es war einmal - Xist Fairy Tales

My advice is to ignore the late game stuff. I don't think Mig researched anything past sorcery, but that was enough. FfH is about quick strikes, and you can wipe out a civ in a few turns.

A few counter arguments: Amurites are indeed very strong. Mig used the spellstaff very well in his game, using the second spell to make some key conquests. But he admitted that he probably couldn't have won without Q's gift of Air mana. You'd have to spend ~720 extra beakers to gain access to air mana if you follow in Mig's footsteps and use Divination as your stepping stone to Sorcery. I don't think anyone is going to gift you mana if you play as the Amurites. For maintenance, you can run City States civic and keep the city costs pretty low (City States got a pretty big boost in EitB compared to base FfH, and Aristocracy got a pretty big nerf). Another thing that Mig did well was to keep a bunch of swordsmen to act as attackers and defenders. He used Ingenuity for cheap upgrades from warrior->swordsmen and adept->mage; you'll need extra gold for at least the latter upgrades.

One thing I didn't mention about the Hippus: Aggressive is really helpful in the early game against barbarians. As RefSteel pointed out in the setup thread, you're likely to be dealing with goblin fort/barrow/ruins spawns on top of the normal barbarians (and, since the map is big, expect more barbs). The extra strength from Aggressive makes it more likely that you win against the barbarians, gaining more promotions. It also means you will probably have to build fewer units than other civs that don't have the Aggressive or Barbarian trait, giving an indirect economic boost. Note that if you border a Barbarian civ, the barbs will march through his territory to attack yours, so you can expect even more barbs than usual.

For Lanun: the boarding party may be weaker than other people's champions, but they start with some really nice promotions that more than offset the strength difference: Boarding lets you attack and capture other player's (or barbarians') ships, and Amphibious means you can attack from ships without penalty. Ships are extremely fast in EitB, and naval attacks are very hard to defend against. Plus, you can use AoE and/or fireball spells from on board to weaken the defenders.

For economy, I think one of Mig's biggest mistakes was not building enough cottages. Admittedly, he was running a lot of specialists and didn't have big cities, but I think cottages were part of the reason why e.g. coldrain had a much better economy. Since you're a BtS player, I imagine you're already aware of the importance of building and working cottages as soon as possible. mackoti in particular is really good at building a strong economy, and I think you'll need cottages to keep up.
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My instict is, coattage every grasland tile. I'm sure, I have to change this a bit for FFH2. But Mig comes from BtS too ?

The interesting part is, that I expect a longer game than the last.
I think, Mig hit the sweet spot, that the map was big enough, that he could get the wizards rolling without getting rushede- and thanks to a goood beeling faster than anyone else got to T2+ - but small enough, that this time advantage was enough to conquer enough (with the worldspell) to win, before the economic crashed. or the economic crash got important enough

A bigger maps makes a rush even less likely, but I can't expect to convert a wizard beeling to an easy win. But I don't really need my weapons to come online so fast, so I could (should) be okay (in a better place than Mig) with a later research, but a better eco.
And in this case, I could maybe research airmana manually. - And I thought, the bigger problem was only one untyped mana ?

But Mig should be a better BtS (civ player) than I am. This could be an argument for not doing that.

But ORG/ING instead of PHI is important too. PHI makes a bulb even faster, but I can't really bulb elementalism.
TECH_ARCANE_LORE->TECH_ALTERATION->TECH_SORCERY->TECH_DIVINATION->TECH_ELEMENTALISM. If the bulblist is correct and I have the researchorder correct.
So this would be the 4th or 5th great sage ? Possible, but manual research should be faster
ORG (and ING) are better economic traits

Your not helping for me to decide. - This is good, I want a discussion especially in this case.
AGG and barbs is something I had known, but not really considered.
And I know that I undervalue the commando promotion.

Lanun is a bit of a risk. Yes, even on a pangea map, you can act with ships, but I don't like to play with ships.
Still EXP is an important eco trait and they have the only "real" eco bonus from my civs.


I think, I can sum it up.
Hippus is the "save" choice. Nothing exotic, a reasonable strong early game (AGG) and a later spike (Commando horsemen), but a relative low ceiling. But horsemen should come online faster than other units.

Ammurites are the riskier choice. Not a good early game (fast adepts (and wizards) are possible), but a higher ceiling - wizards and even later firebows allow me to amass fireball using units.
But they need to get an economic online and research the expensive magic techs withput a early game boost. - And defend against the barbs.

Lanun are possible even riskier. The ceiling should be lower than the hippus ceiling - no real combat advantage. Amphibious can be compared with Commando - thanks to the fast ships, but still not that good - and I need coast cities.
But they have already the best economic of my choices and if there a few island, they could have one of the best economic overall ?
And in this case, I should have the beakers to spare to invest in the overlord units ? They can/should replace my UU as main combat unit.


I still want to chase the next highroll with the Amurites, but actual, I think I should make the "sensible" choice and pick Hippus.


Edit I added a few point to clarify my thoughts - and corrected a few mistakes
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A few more thoughts:

Commando gives +1 first strike chance, so Tasunke gets a few extra percent in addition to his free combat I.

Economy can be its own military trait; more advanced units are much more effective in combat. You can have a pretty vanilla civ but if you're fielding tier 3 and 2 units against your opponents' tier 1 and 2, you're very likely to win. Also, quantity can beat quality: if you're willing to sacrifice enough units, you can bring down stronger units and even heroes. Finally, collateral makes a huge difference: Mig being able to knock 30% off the strength of all the defenders with Maelstrom was key to his easy city captures. If you can be the first to have Maelstrom, Tsunami, or Ring of Fire, you can probably take cities without needing to bomb down their walls/culture defense.

The natural counter to mages is the assassin unit. I think Auroarcher was just starting to build these when Mig ran him over, and he didn't really have a chance to bring them into play. But Guardsman, the counter to assassins, is really hard to get (unless you're Bannor). In a game with a large map, it's much more likely that someone will be able to field a significant number of assassins, especially if they know they're facing the Amurites.
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Okay, the first strike chance is new.

Your right, better (or more) units are often better.
A possible problem in FFH2 - a highly promoted Drill units is more or less immun against this.
But this needs ~ 50 XP ?

Mages are in every case strong, I don't need Ammurites, I know. But Ammurites get 3 strong mana from the palast.
Body and Fire are good.
Meta is not ideal as thrid, they have no persistent summon, but it Eyeball is a assasin counter ?

I think Eyeball sees invisble units ? In this case, Assasins are more or less no problem.
Mages (escpecially Dain wizards) should have a strike range of 6, so they "outrange" assasins. And I should be able to find the assasins thanks to eyeball.
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The problem with promoting along the drill line is that Shadow I negates all first strikes. Drill promotions are the only way to reach Blitz though (other than the Hippus world spell shades ).

It's very hard to acquire the XP for mages if you don't have the Arcane trait. Waiting for the XP to accumulate naturally is too slow, so you have to risk them in combat.

Floating eyes are able to see invisible units, but I think it's only the Sidar that have invisible assassins. It's pretty easy to boost assassins up to 4 moves (mobility + haste); if they're moving on friendly roads they can hit mages from out of fireball range.
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I always forget mobility. But 4 movement requeired 3 promotions + haste, or ?
Add a few adepts to cast hast/eyeball and the assassins shouldn't attack the mages ?
I need more prod, but there should be ways around the assassins.
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Mobility I is available as a first promotion for all units (including siege). Haste is required for a second extra movement point (and only works on living units), except for Recon, Mounted, and Animals, who can take mobility 2 immediately after Mobility I.

Ships can gain +1 movement in any port by casting the Longshoreman spell, then take Flanking I->Navigation I->Navigation II for another +2 movement. Air I can give yet another +1 move.
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I do generally agree with your assessment of the last game (combined with good play by Mig). I will say that many, many times Amurites have been rolled over late game by a larger civ that out-produces them. See the Mastery PBEM, where the Amurites weren't even in the running (albeit on a massive map).
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.

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I think I will take the Amurites.
I don't think I will suceed, but I think the possible high roll is attractive enough. And I want to play with magic.
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Just want to confirm since everyone else has confirmed a first-round decision: Are you locking in Amurites as your choice, or still thinking about it?
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