(February 22nd, 2013, 16:49)superjm Wrote: Inca is Agri/Mysticism
Yes, but Inca is banned for this game.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(February 22nd, 2013, 15:48)oledavy Wrote: Also, I'd like to propose we have our sub-forum name changed to 'Real Men of Genius: Reloaded'
Real Men of Genius 2.0 just doesn't have as snazzy of a ring to it.
Real Men of Genius 2: Real Harder
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(February 22nd, 2013, 16:49)Shoot the Moon Wrote: Eh I wouldn't value those specific four that much above just having a total of four. Sort depends on snake pick order but my gut says leaders should probably be picked before civs (that is I see more of a difference between the best leader and the 8th best than the best non India or Inca civ and the 8th best civ).
Definitely agree with it generally being better to pick leader first.
Thinking more about it, I agree with you that it doesn't matter as much, just as long as we get 4 techs and avoid derping and getting 3 or worse, 2
I'll just leave that post up as a list of combinations for optimum starting beakers.
Got to agree with Shoot that leader is more important than civ, although since duplicate traits are banned it actually means there is more difference between the best and worst leaders. Speaking of civs though, I think your highly overrating starting techs. Starting with 4 isn't necessary since the 4th best tech (IMO fishing) isn't all that crucial to start with. As long as we start with Agri, Mining and maybe Wheel, then I don't care what the 4th tech is since we have all the crucial techs anyway. (besides, who wants Korea/Sumeria? )
Also while we only have the single thread for now, I'd prefer to have only a single thread to play the game in once it starts. Our multi-threaded approach in PB6 was nice for reporting but IMO not the right way to approach a team game.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:15)WarriorKnight Wrote: Also while we only have the single thread for now, I'd prefer to have only a single thread to play the game in once it starts. Our multi-threaded approach in PB6 was nice for reporting but IMO not the right way to approach a team game.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: Settings vote. Please each team vote once.
Based on what I've read so far I think AW will be on. Please vote for other options as if it is. If we end up voting no AW, we can redo other votes that depended on it.
I'm also assuming based on what people have said that we are going with some sort of snake pick for leader/civ assignment, and not just letting each team choose freely and allowing duplicates. Again, vote for other options as though this will be the case, and if we decide otherwise, we will redo those votes.
Locked-in settings:
Sequential team turns pitboss, ancient start, no vassal states, no goody huts, no random events, no tech trading, no communication with other teams. Trades with other teams allowed IF we don't choose always war.
GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)?
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)?
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)?
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)?
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)?
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)?
MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)?
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)?
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)?
Natural vs Only good land?
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)?
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**?
TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***?
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****?
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)?
LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)?
See starts before pick (yes/no)?
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)?
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)?
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)?
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)?
PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes?
Time limit?
New random seed on reload, right?
Let me know if I forgot anything we need to discuss. This has been a much harder list to come up with than usual so I wouldn't be surprised if I did. Btw, let me mention 2 things we often ban but I didn't include in my list of suggested bans.
1) Blockades. Every game I've played in so far, blockades were a fun part of the game, or would have been if they'd been allowed. Naval stuff is already not important as you can tell by people completely ignoring naval techs as long as possible. With blockades allowed at least it's a bit more important. IMO people really overreact to not being able to work coast tiles when an enemy fleet has control of the waters near their city. There is one situation where I would ban blockades, and that is in a simultaneous turns PB game (which this is not!). Problem there is the usual turn split issue, making it so that if first person in turn order gets blockaded by second, they can't reassign their tiles, which is really unfair.
2) Corporations. Well, I like there to be at least a bit of competition for state property. And corporations don't even get used in the majority of games where they are enabled, so I am quite unconvinced they are overpowered. (Yes, it's because they come late in the game and are a big investment then... that's the point!) However, I do feel obligated to mention that in a team game, one player can gift extra corp fuel to the other, which would help one team member have really powerful corp benefits.
* Question assumes water level will be approx 33%, otherwise this is not easily controlled.
** Fair means intended to be balanced without being mirrored. Random means as if generated by a script. This is a continuum. Question is moot to the extent that the map is mirrored.
***If I've ended turn and offer my partner gpt and he accepts, he gets the gpt that turn and I don't lose it. So that's generating money out of thin air and clearly overpowered. Note that the trade can be undone the next turn by offering back an equal GPT trade in the other direction, so you aren't even locked into 10t of anything. Similarly you can get a free happy (or other benefit of a resource) by trading away a happy resource after ending turn so both players get the benefit on the same turn. But this is a much smaller issue because you are locked into 10t after the trade.
****Another way of stopping the GPT abuse mentioned just above is to ban GPT. GPT gifts can also be abused by letting one partner strike for a few turns (which carries next to no penalty) while the other one gets money from them. On the other hand, forcing people to gift lump sums of gold every turn if they want an arrangement like that is a bit silly. My preference is to disallow trading gpt/resources when one partner has ended turn and the other hasn't, and also to ban abuse of strike mechanics, but to allow normal gpt trades.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)?
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)?
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)?
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)?
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)?
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)?
AW - yes
Difficulty - Immortal
Game Speed - Quick (sequential pitbosses take forever anyway, besides its what i'm use to)
Banned Wonders - let's see... Great Lighthouse if AW isn't on, Statue of Liberty, Cristo, Masoleum, and the other banned wonders from PB6 (although it's been a while since I played CIV, maybe I'm banning too much?)
Banned Other - Along with WE's, Spys and Nukes, would probably prefer Blockades and Corps too but not essential (see below)
Barbs - Off
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)?
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)?
* Question assumes water level will be approx 33%, otherwise this is not easily controlled.
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)?
Natural vs Only good land?
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)?
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**?
** Fair means intended to be balanced without being mirrored. Random means as if generated by a script. This is a continuum. Question is moot to the extent that the map is mirrored.
Really don't care too much about this, would prefer Cylinder but aside from that whatever.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***?
***If I've ended turn and offer my partner gpt and he accepts, he gets the gpt that turn and I don't lose it. So that's generating money out of thin air and clearly overpowered. Note that the trade can be undone the next turn by offering back an equal GPT trade in the other direction, so you aren't even locked into 10t of anything. Similarly you can get a free happy (or other benefit of a resource) by trading away a happy resource after ending turn so both players get the benefit on the same turn. But this is a much smaller issue because you are locked into 10t after the trade.
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****?
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)?
****Another way of stopping the GPT abuse mentioned just above is to ban GPT. GPT gifts can also be abused by letting one partner strike for a few turns (which carries next to no penalty) while the other one gets money from them. On the other hand, forcing people to gift lump sums of gold every turn if they want an arrangement like that is a bit silly. My preference is to disallow trading gpt/resources when one partner has ended turn and the other hasn't, and also to ban abuse of strike mechanics, but to allow normal gpt trades.
City gift - First turn only (seems reasonable enough)
Trades when half have EoT - only if not include gnp (resources don't seem overpowered enough to justify lawyering over this when half a team has ended turn)
Can trade GPT - no (personal preference really, I know some like it but keeping it all off just seems easiest way to avoid gpt controversy)
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)?
See starts before pick (yes/no)?
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)?
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)?
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)?
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)?
Snakepick - yes (is there a better way at all?)
starts before pick - don't care as long as we have PB6 option of choosing location for civs
duplicate traits - no
snake pick order reverse turn order - no (allows us to metagame snakepick order too much, besides for AW it wouldn't matter right?)
snakepick order - 4321123443214321 (again if someone else thinks there's a better option im for it)
Bans - All of Big 4
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes?
Time limit?
New random seed on reload, right?
Reloads for mistakes - no (how do we define what is a bad mistake anyway?)
Time limit - no idea (need to have some timer i think to keep the game moving, but people pause the game so often in these formats I wonder if it does any good at all?)
New random seed - errr, no? (why would a new seed be desirable anyway?)
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: 1) Blockades. Every game I've played in so far, blockades were a fun part of the game, or would have been if they'd been allowed. Naval stuff is already not important as you can tell by people completely ignoring naval techs as long as possible. With blockades allowed at least it's a bit more important. IMO people really overreact to not being able to work coast tiles when an enemy fleet has control of the waters near their city. There is one situation where I would ban blockades, and that is in a simultaneous turns PB game (which this is not!). Problem there is the usual turn split issue, making it so that if first person in turn order gets blockaded by second, they can't reassign their tiles, which is really unfair.
I'm sure dave would be the person to respond to this after PB6.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: 2) Corporations. Well, I like there to be at least a bit of competition for state property. And corporations don't even get used in the majority of games where they are enabled, so I am quite unconvinced they are overpowered. (Yes, it's because they come late in the game and are a big investment then... that's the point!) However, I do feel obligated to mention that in a team game, one player can gift extra corp fuel to the other, which would help one team member have really powerful corp benefits.
Well, I think if your not the first to a corp you don't get it right? Seems like a strange way to break the balance of power if 2 teams are still about even late in the game (would have more to comment, but the only I made it late in a game was PBEM8 and I ignored corps completely, clear mistake).
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)?
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)?
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)?
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)?
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)?
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)?
AW - yes
Difficulty - Immortal if cylindrical, maybe Emperor if toroidal? Not really sure, Emperor might be too low though.
Game Speed - Agree on quick
Banned Wonders - GLH if not AW, Statue of Liberty, Cristo. I can go either way on MoM. Maybe Hanging Gardens as well? Sort of hard to tell...in PB6 obviously it was early enough in the tech tree to not be broken, but I can't tell if that'll be the same in 2 civ teams ancient start.
Banned Other - WE's, Spys,and maybe mining inc and sid's sushi (that is the two most overpowered corps)? Or leave corps up to Plako's discretion based on the amount and types of resources? I can go either way on blockades, not a huge deal either way to me.
Barbs - Prefer off.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)?
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)?
* Question assumes water level will be approx 33%, otherwise this is not easily controlled.
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)?
Natural vs Only good land?
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)?
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**?
** Fair means intended to be balanced without being mirrored. Random means as if generated by a script. This is a continuum. Question is moot to the extent that the map is mirrored.
Prefer fair, probably minor differences in terms of mirrored-ness (at the very least capitals mirrored).
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***?
***If I've ended turn and offer my partner gpt and he accepts, he gets the gpt that turn and I don't lose it. So that's generating money out of thin air and clearly overpowered. Note that the trade can be undone the next turn by offering back an equal GPT trade in the other direction, so you aren't even locked into 10t of anything. Similarly you can get a free happy (or other benefit of a resource) by trading away a happy resource after ending turn so both players get the benefit on the same turn. But this is a much smaller issue because you are locked into 10t after the trade.
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****?
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)?
****Another way of stopping the GPT abuse mentioned just above is to ban GPT. GPT gifts can also be abused by letting one partner strike for a few turns (which carries next to no penalty) while the other one gets money from them. On the other hand, forcing people to gift lump sums of gold every turn if they want an arrangement like that is a bit silly. My preference is to disallow trading gpt/resources when one partner has ended turn and the other hasn't, and also to ban abuse of strike mechanics, but to allow normal gpt trades.
City gift - First turn only (considering I suggested it )
I'd also say just ban gpt gifts entirely. If you want to fund, just do it in lump sum gifts.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)?
See starts before pick (yes/no)?
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)?
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)?
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)?
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)?
Snakepick - duh
starts before pick - I'd also prefer not seeing the starts before picking (although maybe after picking can see starts and decide which civ goes where).
duplicate traits - allow them
snake pick order reverse turn order - no (see below)
snakepick order - If AW I'd just go 4321123443211234 as I don't think the turn order will make a huge difference
Bans - All the four that have been mentioned, none above that.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes?
Time limit?
New random seed on reload, right?
Reloads for mistakes - Only if all the teams agree perhaps? If there is some huge game altering mistake I could see it, but in general no.
Time limit - 18-24h per team? With the expectation that a team should almost never actually take that amount of time, particularly in the early stages
New random seed - Also not sure why we want it. Ask perhaps?
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: 1) Blockades. Every game I've played in so far, blockades were a fun part of the game, or would have been if they'd been allowed. Naval stuff is already not important as you can tell by people completely ignoring naval techs as long as possible. With blockades allowed at least it's a bit more important. IMO people really overreact to not being able to work coast tiles when an enemy fleet has control of the waters near their city. There is one situation where I would ban blockades, and that is in a simultaneous turns PB game (which this is not!). Problem there is the usual turn split issue, making it so that if first person in turn order gets blockaded by second, they can't reassign their tiles, which is really unfair.
I'm fine either way on blockades. I can see the arguments of both sides and don't really care.
(February 22nd, 2013, 19:20)SevenSpirits Wrote: 2) Corporations. Well, I like there to be at least a bit of competition for state property. And corporations don't even get used in the majority of games where they are enabled, so I am quite unconvinced they are overpowered. (Yes, it's because they come late in the game and are a big investment then... that's the point!) However, I do feel obligated to mention that in a team game, one player can gift extra corp fuel to the other, which would help one team member have really powerful corp benefits.
As I said above, maybe either just ban the strongest corps or leave it up to Plako with the advice to ban any corps that he has enough resources for to be overpowered.
In terms of starting units that 7 just brought up, I'd say either normal or everyone starts with a warrior (or hell could say everyone starts with a scout, I don't really care). But just one unit I'd say.
GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War - Yes
Handicap level - I'm pretty indifferent on this. Though, could someone explain to me why we're setting the difficulty level so high?
Game Speed - Quick
Banned Wonders - Given that it's an ancient era start, and that it's only 2 teams instead of 3 teams this time, I don't really think there are any wonders that need to be banned. I'm honestly not sure, I have never played an ancient era team game. Perhaps the MoM.
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)? - Agree, though I'm flexible on spies.
Barbarians - Don't care
MAP INSTRUCTIONS
I generally prefer 'fair,' non-mirrored maps. However, I've played on two maps made by Plako, both of which I loved. I would prefer leaving everything to his discretion.
TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting - No Restrictions. I would prefer to leave the option open to gift cities between team members (RMoG did it twice in PB6), and trust the players not to indulge in any mass 'gift all the cities to one player' bullshit.
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't - No
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) - Yes
Can strike - Yes Again, would prefer to count on players to not indulge in any bullshit.
LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game - Yes
See starts before pick - No, I don't think it's necessary here. I would like to see the starts after the pick and get to decide where to place each civ thoug
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait - No
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order - Don't Care
Snake pick order - Don't Care
Bans - India, Inca, Willem, Pacal
PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes - Yes
Time limit - Wait, is this a turn limit or a turn timer limit?
New random seed on reload - Yes
I know this may surprise a few people, but I would like to actually prefer Blockades On. Yes, they're overpowered in BTS, but its better than not having them at all. I would also prefer Corporations On
I would also like each civ to start off with a Scout and Warrior
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