[SPOILERS] Will the Sun(rise) Ever Set on Washington, Mongolia?

[Gavagai]

Expansive + Financial gives double production bonus to every single gold multiplier in game. If we were playing Emperor level, that would definitely be an interesting combo. On Monarch there will be a kind of anti-synergy as financial trait will give you a higher slider in the late game.

[Gavagai]

OK, my suggestion would be to pick Joao. It's a decent pick even in base BTS but in RtR mod it is strengthened by expansive gold gold multipliers bonuses. That will give you a synergy as fast expansion would mean a lower slider.

[Gavagai]

Regarding your SC analogies:

1. A unit built that you don't need is wasted resources - very true.

2. It's usually better for your units to be at your enemy's doorstep - is it true even for Starcraft? Prevalence of "base race" meta in Bronze League hardly proves this point. I would better say that you should be building units with specific mission in mind, especially during early game. But this is the same thing which was said in bullet 1.

Also, keep in mind that I usually build more units during early-mid game (from T50 to T80) than most of the players here. I think this is because I value visibility a lot.

3. Economy is king. - yes, cap. However, it's not that true for low level SC play.

4. Find your "edge." - very true for civ. Combination of your civ, leader and geographical situation gives your position unique properties which others don't have. Your task is to understand related advantages and disadventages and then find a way to exploit the former and to mitigate the laltter.

[Whosit]

Thanks for chiming in Gavagai! About EXP + FIN, I was actually thinking about that myself the other day, but it hadn't occurred to me how difficulty level would factor into that. I wonder if it really is anti-synergistic to keep the science slider high, though, because isn't that preferable? Would it make a difference if the min/max usage of the sliders was in effect? I'm not going to doubt Joao strength as a leader to expand, but even RtR Imperialistic doesn't really excite me. The first couple settlers are probably going to be produced mainly with food, right? How long IMP remains useful depends on the size of the map, I suppose. If we get to see starts, that might factor in, but in a vacuum I'd probably prefer to pick another trait to pair with EXP.

On to the SC2 stuff!

1. Glad we agree on this.

2. I don't think it's useful to talk about Bronze League stuff, honestly. Low level players are still trying to grasp the basics and aren't going to have any finesse. I will grant that my statement can depend on match-up. As a Protoss player, early game pressure against Terran or Protoss can keep them pinned up. I've seen few examples of effective really early Protoss pressure against Zerg, however. Where this point comes to translation, however, my intent was about initiative, which I've seen brought up here and there. That is, you want your opponent to react to your moves, and one method of doing that can be poking around with units.

3. Again, not really talking about low level play but yeah.

4. This is going to be the big challenge for me. Even at my peak in SC2, a game I was much better at than Civ IV, I had trouble with this. This is also the point that's going to be nearly impossible to plan for, though I suppose selecting Leader Traits and Civilization at the start is an initial attempt. My goal in a vacuum is to get an edge by superior horizontal expansion (land), turn that land advantage into an economic advantage (cottages?), and then with a technological edge, conquer a weaker neighbor for more land, rinse and repeat.

[Gavagai]

Slow-building settlers with food is grossly sub-optimal, even without bonuses. And +60% settler production means that you can two-pop whip them after putting 4 hammers.

[Gavagai]

Oh, it's Krillmod. You will have 48 hammers for the first whip but 32 for the second. Which gives us 20 hammers before 2-pop whip is possible.

[Whosit]

From some threads I read, many people will build the first settler when all available food resources have been improved (capital size 3). I suppose the usefulness of growing to size 4 to whip depends on whether or not BW can be completed by then (I'm used to seeing people wait for the first settler to be finished and switching civics while the settler is en route to its destination). Either way, good point about whip hammers and multipliers, but yeah, Krill mod where the whip has been nerfed. With a decent capital site, it should be possible to put 20 hammers into a Settler in a couple of turns, though. I think.

[Gavagai]

The first settler and sometimes the second one are pretty often slow-built. After that whipping and chopping is strongly preferrable. I think that if you think that slow expantion is your weakness than it would be pretty interesting to try to build the game around REXing.

[Gavagai]

Of course, I still don't understand if we would see starts before picking. If yes than trait choice will be strongly terrain-dependent. For example, a riverless start would give Fin a lot of additional points.

[Whosit]

Yeah, that's how RtR FIN got interesting. Strongest if there are few rivers, otherwise not that powerful (though of course see Commodore's PB13 game for the power of FIN Coast + IMP Feitorias). Hopefully we'll learn if we'll see the start or not.

Back round to the strategy at hand: Yeah, I think I'm weak at expansion. I think I am OK at getting the first couple cities out (though I'm sure I could still use work there), but after that I tend to slow down because I am not good at prioritizing unit and infrastructure builds. I like improving my cities. But if I'm building libraries everywhere, I don't build settlers. Then there's also a sub-issue of getting new cities to become productive quickly. The rule of thumb I've picked up is that you usually want a Granary first, and/or a culture building if it's absolutely necessary, but after that I'm not always sure what to do. Should a future commerce city start a Library right away? Should I build units without a barracks? Should I just slow-build a Worker or Settler from a small city? That's stuff I need to think about. I have at least learned a bit about splitting food off from the capital, if the terrain allows for it.

So, in a vacuum, EXP/FIN interests me for a couple reasons: Expansive I think is a trait I just need to focus me, but as was mentioned before, getting half price on all Gold buildings tickles me. FIN is weaker than in BtS, but still allows for some degree of flexibility. I think it would require a focus on traditional commerce econ. Industrious is tempting mainly because I like Forges. Organized is something I'm thinking about because ORG is a good econ trait in its own right, but RtR EXP + ORG gives half price to 7 buildings, which is pretty stunning (granted, few cities would build all of those, and several only become available later).

I'd probably lean to FIN or ORG, though, because I feel, again in a vacuum, I probably want some sort of econ trait to help balance my planned expansion.

As for Civs, China might be nice for starting techs and the UU. Persia or Zulu might be good picks if we don't see starts, because I think both start with Agri/Hunting? That would cover nearly all land-based food resources we might start with.

Choices change if we do get to see starts, of course, so hopefully we'll learn soon if we'll be getting that.