[PB37 SPOILER] Coeurva, Bacchus -- Cyrus of Carthage

[Bacchus]

Don't want to whip this capital much, want a granary early, lots of rivers blanking Fin. With eight players I think we want to take a Fishing civ at first pick, there probably won't be any fishing/reasonable civs left by the time it comes back around. Fishing fully makes up for itself with the extra beaker pretty quickly anyway. Opening into BW seems fine, whip the first worker, pasture, mine and chop, then cottages. We can perhaps skip agriculture altogether, but need a granary quickly. I'm pretty sure some reasonable Imp leader will be left. With this low prod I am partial to Cathy, also maybe Cyrus (to whip 6 -> 4 in the cap), Charlemagne maybe, but many others are also fine.

[Coeurva]

Here's my slightly-revised proposal (sorry for lackadaisical formatting; I'll have to make a proper spreadsheet):

Code:

Worker          tile1  tile2   tile3     FPT     HPT     food bin    build queue

T0  ---             oasis                      3       2       0/22        worker 5/60
T12 >1, pasture 4t  oasis                      3       2       3/22        wboat  2/30
T13     pasture 3t  oasis                      3       2       6/22        wboat  4/30
T14     pasture 2t  oasis                      3       2       9/22        wboat  6/30
T15 finish pasture  pcow                       3       5       12/22       wboat  11/30
T16 >6, mine 4t     pcow                       3       5       15/22       wboat  16/30
T17                 pcow                       3       5       18/22       wboat  21/30
T18                 pcow                       3       5       21/22       wboat  26/30
T19 finish mine     pcow                       3       5       24/22->2/24 wboat  31/30 -> 1h OF
T20 >9, farm 7t     pcow    clams              6       5       8/24        barracks?
T21 >3, farm 5t     pcow    clams              6       5       16/24       warrior 5/15
T22          4t     pcow    clams              6       5       22/24       warrior 10/15
T23          3t     pcow    clams              6       5       28/24->4/26 warrior 15/15
T24 >1 (onto gfh)   pcow    clams  gr-mine     5       8       4/26        settler 17/100
T25     chop 3t     pcow    clams  gr-mine     5       8                   settler 34/100
T26     chop 2t     pcow    clams  gr-mine     5       8                   settler 51/100
T27 finish chop 32h pcow    clams  gr-mine     5       8       4/26        settler 68/100 + 32h chop => settler 100/100

Then on T28, we can walk the settler towards the fur/rice site, and while the settler is en route, revolt to Slavery, improve the rice, and grow onto furs (strong commerce tile).
The only problem is that we have only one warrior and worker, but we can 2t a warrior in the capital while growing, or 5t a worker.

I agree that we want Fishing/Hunting, Fishing/Mining or Hunting/Mining from our civ. And we definitely want IMP. Research path (Mining,Fishing,Hunting) -> BW (need this on T25) -> Agri (need this earlier) -> AH -> Wheel -> Pottery, maybe not in that order. Unsure if we can actually get all the techs on time for the plan above, though.

Work boat first seems viable. At first glance, it appears that we're hitting size 2 around T20 either way, but wb first is stronger at commerce. We probably can't improve both the mine and the rice by T29 if we go down that route, though -- not that this matters if we can't research all the techs on time anyway. Unfortunately, we have no forested plains hill in the cross, and no grass forest hill in the small cross, which makes the work boat take 9t when emphasizing hammers.

Code:

Worker          tile1  tile2   tile3     FPT     HPT     food bin    build queue

T0  ---             gfor                       2       3       2/22        wboat  3/30
T5  ---             gforh                      1       4       10/22       wboat  19/30
T9  ---             clams                      5       2       19/22
T11 ---             clams  oasis               6       2       2/24        worker 8/60
T15 [slavery revolt]
T16 whip worker.
T17 pasture cow, regrow in 4t
T21 work clams, cow and proceed as with the other plan (grow size3, chop settler)

I'll have to simulate both options now.

I think CHM would not see much use, as we can hook up furs early for happy cap 6. Settling wet rice/grass furs is viable. Cathy, Justinian, Charlie all seem fine. Joao is out because when working improved tiles, we can only get hpt numbers congruent with 2 mod 3, which makes EXP feel wasteful.

[Bacchus]

WB scenario should be growth first, don't get much from that extra hammer. 7 turns at clams, move to gforh, newly grown pop goes to oasis.

Also you can't whip worker at T16, needs too many hammers.

I hope to see something much better to settle than furs/rice though.

[Coeurva]

As far as I've tried, we cannot possibly research all of Fishing, Hunting, Agriculture, Mining and BW by T25 to fulfill the plan I had. But if we work a lake for a turn, we can get all of these by T29 at least, with a settler ready to move on that turn. This requires Fishing and Hunting (maybe Fishing/Mining works as well). Micro plan above also overlooks T27 natural production, but not to our detriment.

[Coeurva]

I simmed your suggestion (7t clams, 1t gforh, then 3t oasis + gforh to produce boat, then 4t oasis + clams).

Unless we start with Fishing/Mining, it seems to me that we can't research BW on time to slave the worker on T16 (SPI) or T17 (not SPI) (since it takes 14t-17t and Mining takes another 7t), but that prevents us from improving the cow right away -- no Hunting yet.

Another thought: If we don't settle furs -- I agree that it's only a workable site from what we can see so far, not a strong one -- we can still hook them up in the capital's third-ring borders for the happiness. That actually makes CHM (Cyrus) gain in value since it enables 6->4 whips outside the capital.

[Coeurva]

The Settler production bonus for IMP is 50% in RtR 2.0.8.3, not 60%. I've been wondering why the game was refusing to comply with the T28 settler. -- I think there is a version of RtR that uses 60%.

T28 settler is possible nonetheless by going worker first. Only problem with that plan is that the second grass hill ends up mined a few turns before we need it, due to delayed Agriculture (comes in T28). Lake tile not needed, silly me again (oasis obviously better for that purpose). Could then slave a worker for the second city, just build it naturally, or use the one we already have. We would also only have a single warrior but can 2t another one in the capital.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, if we go BW first, the worker would start with going for a chop -- that's fine, chops are better the earlier they come out. He can chop the west forest, then get onto the cow.

[Coeurva]

That sounds good: put the chop into an IMP settler (30h + bits) for a turn and proceed to grow, then 4t-finish the settler later at 17 fhpt.

Edit: We could slave the worker on T16 (comes out T17) but the plan that slaves on T17 (which you probably had in mind) is superior, and finishes Hunting just as the chop completes -- and the chop, in turn, completes just after we grow to size 2. Then we grow to size3 in 4t. Unfortunately, we still don't have a grass mine by that time so we're still working the oasis, which means a T29 settler if we whip him.

Or we could build another worker at size2, using the chop for that, then grow to 3 as the mine completes, chop the gforh, and thus obtain a later settler but two workers and warriors.

[Bacchus]

So worker first and workboat first give similar results for the settler? And in both cases we have a single warrior?

[Coeurva]

Workboat first probably sees us with 1-2 workers and 2 warriors, but a later settler (T29-T32). Still need to simulate the 2-worker opening with boat first. See edit above, too.

Edit: Alright, simmed it all. Boat first 2-worker opening (whip first worker; chop into second worker without whip) gives us a T32 settler, but also 2 workers and 2 warriors, with a third warrior possible in 1t from overflow. Two forests chopped, capital size 3. Boat first 1-worker opening has 2 warriors, T29 settler. Worker first has the fastest possible (?) T28 settler, but only 1 warrior and another one in 2t (3t if we revolt to Slavery) and a useless grass mine -- can't reach Wheel by T25. All variants can tech BW, Hunting and Agri/Wheel by ~T30, although worker first is a bit slower.

I'm preferring boat first.