[SPOILERS]PB34:Burnin' Daylight - DMOC/gsorel/Ichabod

[Mr. Cairo]

Some more thoughts after replaying the turn: We hook up silver next turn, which will help a lot, as will the ivory in the newest city plant, although the appearence of that barb has delayed that somewhat:

I could have started the camp this turn, covering the workers with the Impi, but I'm not going to take the chance, even if it is very very small.

DTG sent me a PM asking if I could play the first half of the turn split at a time that lets him play in the evening GMT. Which is fine, it just means I have to play before going to work in the morning, so I don't have as much time as I would like, but I doubt we'll be in a turn split for much longer anyway. Re: DTG, I countered his peace treaty offer with a cease-fire, I doubt he'll take it, but I might as well anyway.

Worker Micro: most of that is pretty simple right now, with our workers all clustered around our newest cities, getting them up to speed/chopping. The workers that will start arriving however are another matter; I'll post some screens later, but for now I'm planning on focusing on cottages, wherever I think we can fit them, riverside or otherwise.

[DMOC]

Mr. Cairo,

Thanks so much for the update! I'm writing this in the morning (GMT-7 time zone) and I"m sorry I didn't get to a more full response last night. I'll look at this report tonight. My quick thought is that I think you may be right on DTG trying to settle there. We can make it difficult for him, but in my opinion, if he gets the site there, it's really not the end of the world. We have so much and we need to develop and I would almost be inclined for a peace treaty offer so we could relax for a few turns. Great to see that he's not going to invade us further (I hope).

[DMOC]

OK, let's try and think through the situation a bit. I quoted some of your post so I can respond to individual pieces. I think I read all of it so if there's something I didn't mention regarding your post, it means I think you're mostly doing the right thing.

The capital, currently getting a Great Scientist and building workers. I see no reason for this to change. There were two notes left on the map from gsorel, one saying "GS for Alphabet", and the other saying "GS for GA". I'm inclined to go with the latter suggestion.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Great Scientist to build an Academy? If we start laying down some cottages (and we really do need some, judging from the finances!) then the Academy is going to provide a very nice boost for the rest of the game. Otherwise, I agree, no need for the capital to change, but after the worker and scientists are done, this city needs to work cottages, in my opinion.

A lot of whip unhappy, and not much going for it but those 5-food tiles and a bunch of overflow, so I set it to a worker.

Agree, a worker is fine. I suggest that worker help out the capital's workers in mining and cottaging.

I hadn't intended to move the warrior out of this city; I had given it the order while paused, then saw the amount of whip unhappy, but I forgot to undo the order, so the warrior left when I unpaused. It loses out of 3 hammers (I had set the city to a max hammer configuration since it was at the happy cap), and I have an Impi on its way down that will reach the city next turn, so I don't need to send the warrior back if we decide to keep it on the front to upgrade.

OK, but let's do our best to get a peace treaty or ceasefire. I would strongly advise against upgrading the warrior, the gold tradeoff isn't worth it, in my opinion. Agree, let's get a defender back in the city, grow it to size 4 and work max hammers.

Also got a lot of whip unhappy, saw no reason to work the corn, since I don't want it to grow anyway, and it needs that WB for the whales.

I think I would keep the city growing. As you mentioned, we're getting silver soon and the whip unhappiness may wear off in the next few turns.

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Worker Micro: most of that is pretty simple right now, with our workers all clustered around our newest cities, getting them up to speed/chopping. The workers that will start arriving however are another matter; I'll post some screens later, but for now I'm planning on focusing on cottages, wherever I think we can fit them, riverside or otherwise.

Yes, please focus on cottages. They are going to be needed. You might also have to be careful about if there are riverside or lakeside tiles that will be needed for chain irrigation later, but those should be easy to spot and you can mark them with signs.

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LONG TERM IDEAS:

1. No more cities for now.
2. Concentrate military by DTG border and keep a relatively healthy one by chumchu border. It looks like chumchu isn't putting much culture in his cities (a size 7 city with no border pops??).
3. Focus on cottages and growth, with the larger cities by happy cap building workers.
4. Great Scientist, first one use for an Academy. I'd also want a second city working two scientists as well soon.
5. Tech path: Math makes sense. Could we get Hanging Gardens? I hope. Gsorel mentioned he wanted to keep forests by Borsche's old territory for a wonder. But I don't know if other civilizations have stone. After Math, I'm not sure off the top of my head, but we have many turns to decide on what to do.
6. All espionage points should go to DTG/pickle.

PS: Why is OT4E's score high, according to CivStats? Did he get a wonder?

[Mr. Cairo]

Also got a lot of whip unhappy, saw no reason to work the corn, since I don't want it to grow anyway, and it needs that WB for the whales.

I think I would keep the city growing. As you mentioned, we're getting silver soon and the whip unhappiness may wear off in the next few turns.

Taking the corn grows it in 1 turn anyway, and I wanted to prioritise the whales; also as it happens, that's the city that is now in unhappiness anyway when I sent it's garrison north to deal with a barb and it wont get re-garrisoned for at least 2 turns, so growing it into further unhappiness is not ideal.

1. No more cities for now.

Yes

2. Concentrate military by DTG border and keep a relatively healthy one by chumchu border. It looks like chumchu isn't putting much culture in his cities (a size 7 city with no border pops??).

To be honest, I see Chumchu as more of a threat, simply due to the proximity to out capital, and the width of the border. If Rootin becomes our border city with DTG, it'll be a lot easier to defend than our border with Chumchu. I'm planning on sending a lot of the axes coming up soon to that border.

3. Focus on cottages and growth, with the larger cities by happy cap building workers.

Yes

4. Great Scientist, first one use for an Academy. I'd also want a second city working two scientists as well soon.

See, that's what I've always thought, but in PB 32, most players used that for a GA and it seemed to work out very well for them; while my early Academy didn't end up being all that useful as I ended up focusing on production for my capital, more than commerce. Also, I want to keep the GS around for a GA for my plan for all those forests you mentioned below.

5. Tech path: Math makes sense. Could we get Hanging Gardens? I hope. Gsorel mentioned he wanted to keep forests by Borsche's old territory for a wonder. But I don't know if other civilizations have stone. After Math, I'm not sure off the top of my head, but we have many turns to decide on what to do.

I want to go for the Mausoleum (which is why I want to save that Scientist). Hanging Gardens are going to be the backup plan right now, but if we can, I really want to get the MoM and immediately fire off a 12-turn GA. I have yet to see any Marble or Stone on the map, it's possible there either isn't any, or it's on an island or something like that.

6. All espionage points should go to DTG/pickle.

That they are, I only got DTG's graphs this turn after swapping all the EP away from Chumchu. All three of the civs we've met have been pumping a lot of EP into us, which is annoying.

PS: Why is OT4E's score high, according to CivStats? Did he get a wonder?

Yes, the Oracle. He got an 18-point tech with it; which with my extremely limited knowledge of this kind of C&D stuff means he got a Medieval tech with it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In other news, DTG accepted my cease-fire offer, which is ideal I think. It reduces the tension somewhat, makes my rl scheduling easier, and still maintains the level of discomfort that I wanted DTG to be in when settling up to our border.

Over the weekend, I can try and work up a micro plan for getting the Mausoleum, but it's not something I have a lotof experience doing, so it may be a little rough.

Also, thanks for all your input DMOC, I can imagine it would have been easy to just give up on this game with the main turnplayer getting replaced, but I'm very happy you've stuck around. Thanks.

[Mr. Cairo]

Update with overview shots instead of individual city screens:
The North

-I have the barb trapped, could have attacked at 90%, but why take the chance.
-Silver mined at Guac, workers going to put another chop into the granary to finish it, then will whip an Ikhanda.
-2 turns into ivory camp by Calling Elvis*
-I'm still not working the corn at Blergburg, as without a garrison 3 pop is the happy cap, I'll swap to it next turn so it grows on the turn it gets a garrison, once at size four it can work the fish, whales, corn, and mine and make workers while waiting for whip to wear off.

The Core

-Worker out of cap will start cottaging, let cap grow to 6, then back to a worker.
-RR will make another axe after that one, these destined for this border with Chumchu.
-PumPum just growing, once it's borders pop and it can work both lake tiles and the clams, it'll have a decent amount of food and can start to whip workers out.
-Shootist will finish that worker then grow, I'm thinking about cottaging those silks, but I think farming them is preferable rn. Shootist's strength lies in food for now, and like PumPum will be whipping workers for the foreseeable future.

The Eastern Lands

-Plenty of units shuffling around as I set up garrisons.
-A chop will complete the axe out of The Greatest WW2 Movie Of All Time, which also grows. The tentative plan then is to chop out a lighthouse, so the city can happily work coast tiles while making workers, probably also through use of the whip.
-Born Reckless finishes an Impi, and will probably make another while it grows some more. I have some plans for our Impis that have not been given shock**.
-Another chop will finish the Ikhanda in Rootin, which will put cultural pressure on DTG's new city. I may even then start on a library, also assisted with chops, to really put the cultural pressure on there.

The Khazak Lands

-I put a dotmap here, although there are no plans to settle it any time soon, however that barb city does provide an opportunity for our Impis. As long as that city is making warriors, we can farm XP from it, giving our Impis the chance to get Formation easily.

DTG Border Lands

-This is the city that DTG planted this turn, covered by 2 archers and 2 axes. It's pretty aggressive, but I'm not inclined to do anything militarily about it for now. Also, it's not a particularly good city location, lacking any food resources, and the sugar and lake tiles are poor substitutes. I'm guessing he put it on the hill instead of the ruins for defensive purposes.



*New city names. I don't know anything about John Wayne, so I can't continue that theme, for now the theme will be Dire Straights songs.

**Way too many of our Impis have the shock promotion. It's not needed against warriors, and it's not enough to make them competitive against axes. Being aggressive, we should try and save the XP on our Impis for Formation, a much more useful, and harder to get, promotion.

[Mr. Cairo]

Turn played, only a few changes:

The Eastern Lands

-Plenty of units shuffling around as I set up garrisons.
-A chop will complete the axe out of The Greatest WW2 Movie Of All Time, which also grows. The tentative plan then is to chop out a lighthouse, so the city can happily work coast tiles while making workers, probably also through use of the whip.
-Born Reckless finishes an Impi, and will probably make another while it grows some more. I have some plans for our Impis that have not been given shock**.
-Another chop will finish the Ikhanda in Rootin, which will put cultural pressure on DTG's new city. I may even then start on a library, also assisted with chops, to really put the cultural pressure on there.

-The Longest Day is going to build a worker instead of the lighthouse.
-The three workers around here available this turn have all gone to the forest tile 1S of Rootin, covered by 3 axes, to chop that forest into a library, which we should be able to 1pop whip in 5 turns, to be completed in 6.

[Mr. Cairo]

Update, not a lot of pictures I'm afraid, just one I'll that save for last.


Things are going well. Our first cottage was finished this turn, with more on the way. We're up to 11 workers, with 2 more having been whipped this turn. We have 4 happiness resources and few improved tiles, so I'm going to be whipping workers pretty regularly until we're up to around 20-25 or so and we can actually support growth with improved tiles.


Once we're over the hump economically (and we're getting there) we can start expanding again. We have an awful lot of space to expand into, but we need to do it carefully, with plenty of worker support, and while maintaining a military large enough to scare off DTG and Chumchu, and whoever else we may end up meeting.


We now have 2 Impis that can take Formation, and another one heading towards that barb city, which has yet to replace its warriors with axes. So hopefully we can continue to farm xp from it, before eventually capturing it, since it is in a nice location.


Elkad offered a map trade, which I rejected. We've explored quite a lot, and I have no interest in giving Elkad our maps for him to trade around to other people, especially DTG. Also, just want to confirm that map trading is allowed in this game? It's banned in PB32 so I was a little surprised to see the offer appear, but there's no mention of map trading in the game rules.

And here's the one picture I promised, our Demos while at 100% science:

Not bad, not bad at all. Fairly sure that rival best MFG comes from OT4E, who got the Pyramids a couple turns ago (I'm pretty sure it was him anyway).

[Mr. Cairo]

There may not be any axes in the barb city, but the barbs have axes now:

I was moving the Impi that had just gotten to 5xp from killing a barb warrior in the city, and it ended up next to this axe. I had a shock Impi nearby, so I moved that one to cover the (soon-to-be) Formation Impi, since Formation is a more valuable promotion, and the Shock Impi gets ~25% odds on the barb axe. If the barb attacks and wins, but is injured enough to die to a C2 Impi, I'll hold on killing it until the Impi 2E of Rootin can do it, getting the xp it needs for Formation.
Also visible here is the Library I just whipped in Rootin. DTG's city has a Terrace in it, so getting the extra culture from the library has become a necessity. Seeing that barb axe has made me want to put the overflow from the library into a chariot, which I would want to get as much xp on as possible for eventual use as a GG medic.
Maths should only take two turns; if I have to I can work some coast to get the final few commerce needed next turn.



I'm also starting to prepare Born Reckless for the MoM run. There doesn't appear to be any Marble on the map so far, so we're going to have to go without. There's 7 forests there, for 210 hammers, out of 450 needed for MoM.

Here's the plan, roughly.
Step 1: Grow city to cap, which on turn we get Calender will be 9 (thanks to Guac being built on top of dyes). Probably going to have to grow into unhappiness to be at size 10 that turn.
Step 2: Prepare land around city. In this case, rather than simply pre-chopping all the forests to get an instant 210 hammer influx, I'll pre-chop the three that are on flat land, and pre-mine the hills, so that on the turn we get Calender, we can finish those mines, put 150 hammers into the wonder, and have max hammers in the city.
Step 3: Put natural hammers in until we have enough for Step 4. At size 9; working the 6 mines, sheep, cows, and wheat, Born Reckless produces 26 hammers a turn.
Step 4: Chop remaining forests for 60 hammers to finish wonder.

I haven't tried to work out exactly how long all this will take for one reason: I don't know how long Calender will take. ATM we make ~20 gpt at 0% science, but that # changes every turn, as cities grow/are whipped, and cottages are built. Once we finish Maths, I'll have a better idea of how long Calender will take, and I can get more specific then. My rough maths has it taking 8-9 turns rn. But that might change based on overflow, which is dependent on when Calender is finished. In any case, I'll set up a sim tomorrow and see what kind of worker labour I'll need to get all this done in a reasonable time-frame.


Related to the above, can any lurkers tell me how whips for wonders are effected by the changes to base whip hammers in RtR mod? In vanilla, whips are only 50% efficient (ie: 15 hammers/pop) when building a Great Wonder. Is it the same in RtR mod? ie: 15 for the 1st pop, and 10 for each pop beyond the first?

EDIT: Thought there was an extra mine for some reason, made the change, didn't effect the numbers, I still had the hammer output correct.

[AdrienIer]

In vanilla, whips are only 50% efficient (ie: 15 hammers/pop) when building a Great Wonder. Is it the same in RtR mod? ie: 15 for the 1st pop, and 10 for each pop beyond the first?

That is true. You'd better chop your wonders generally.

[DMOC]

I support the Mausoleum plan. Might as well get as much as we can and keep denying OT4E wonders, and if there's no marble that just means the other non-industrious teams will suffer the same penalties as we do. Has he gotten Stonehenge, AND Oracle, AND Pyramids?!?