[Spoiler] Suboptimal's Next Attempt at Lurker Frustration

[suboptimal]

Turn 59

The Ancient Age is over! Long live the Ancient Age! Oh yeah, this happened too:




The era point for my first Classical Era tech counts for this era, so off to a good start there. Armagh has given me the eureka for Irrigation as their quest. Hopefully they don’t live to see the day. Given the prior suggestion by Alhambram I take Monumentality for +1 era score per district completed. Archery is down to 1 turn, Irrigation down to 2 turns, Masonry and Wheel each down to four turns unboosted, but that’s all due to the 24+ overflow from Celestial Navigation. I want to dump the overflow into the most expensive thing I can research, which is Shipbuilding. I’ll spend one turn there, finish Archery and then research Irrigation since I’d like the free builders to put down banana and silk plantations. Political Philosophy in two turns, right on schedule.

Up at Cleggy the granary is complete and the city expanded to the remaining elephants. It’ll grab the cattle in four turns. No longer against the housing cap the city is pulling in 8 surplus per turn and can gain two population before I need to worry about housing again. That’ll happen pretty quickly, though, as the 4th population is only 3 turns away. I start the Royal Navy Dockyard and bring the builder back to the city center. It’s 5 turns to build but I’ll chop it out the turn after next. That’ll complete the RND on that turn and overflow 27 into the first of two shipping projects.

Slinger continues southeast, finds the other two Armagh warriors. Scout reaches the Columbia River and will cross next turn. Builder at Compo removes the fishing boats. Next turn I’ll harvest the crabs and start the RND there. I move one warrior onto the jungle hill and the other southeast across the wines.




That jungle hill spot is most certainly my next settlement. Just a shame that the +3 Campus spot is facing Canada. However, the tile to the SE is a +2 so it’s not too shabby. The free builder can harvest the stone right at the turn the city is founded. The desert hill at the end of the mountains is not coastal so I don’t yet know what sort of choke point is down there. I’ll find that out next turn.

Kaiser picked up another two tourists, so he’s landed the inspiration for something big.

[suboptimal]

Alhambram, what do you think of the possibility that Canada hasn't scouted in this direction because they didn't think there was much east of the river? I find it odd that I've defogged almost the entirety of the land between my capital and their eastern borders and have not seen ANY canadian units in the area, not even a barbarian picket. Their milpower has been lower than mine the past few turns and will be a bit lower still with the warrior in Foggy completing.

I have to wonder if it's better to not meet them and remain a hermit kingdom a little while longer even though it leaves us blind to Canada's stats. In that case I'd send the scout straight south from where it is instead of walking into what might be the Canadian core east of Geneva.

I think settling 'C', 'D' and 'E' as planned, followed by another settler in the mid-80's for an attempt at the horse hill, is the way to go for settlements. I also think that if I take Geneva with galleys out of Cleggy (right around the late 70's/early 80's) it'd make it difficult for Canada to settle anything south of Geneva before we got there - loyalty pressure would be too great. It does make some of the back line cities a bit more expensive to settle but I'll sort that out later.

[Alhambram]

Canada probably got more priorites elsewhere then in our direction, we should make use of this by claiming river area.
Maybe indeed better to not meet, so they remains unaware of relative close presence in east and we can avoid setter race with them if we play our cards right.

If we manages to settle horse hill and capture geneva, then after it we probably spilt builds into western cities military build for defense and eastern cities more settlers to fill up backlines in north/east for more districts.

[suboptimal]

Looks like we'll be the hermit kingdom for quite a bit longer. If the build order holds and I keep Colonization and Magnus in the city, Foggy will get out settlers on Turns 71 (D), 73 ©, 76 (E) and no-chop, hard built settler on Turn 84 (Hill Horse). I've given consideration to putting the hill horse before one of those three but have yet to come up with a good reason for it. C & E get RNDs built quickly, C&D define the front line with Canada and D secures culture. In theory I could speed that up with a builder out of Truly but it only saves four turns and I'd prefer the city to go Archer -> Encampment before anything else, just to get another unit onto the map.

[suboptimal]

Turn 60

Foggy has completed its warrior, it starts a settler. The plan here is to build the settler for a few turns then switch to the Ancestral Hall. I’ll buy a builder and get it in position to chop the forest 2NE to complete the Ancestral Hall during Turn 68, then start chopping out settlers. The warrior here will head towards Ullswater Lake to help secure the coastal city site.

Truly’s granary is finished, I start a slinger. This build won’t complete as a slinger because I’ll be finishing Archery in two turns. I’m also going to pull Maritime Industries and slot Agoge from next turn through the start of Turn 65. That lines up with the four turns I won’t be building any galleys and it’ll take me exactly that long to complete the archer. Once the archer is done Truly will build its Encampment for the inspiration and eventual barracks.

Builder at Cleggy moves to the coastal woods for next turn’s chop and RND completion. Builder at Compo harvests the crabs for 114 and I put down the city’s RND in the now-empty spot. The builder will move to the jungle to the northeast for a chop in two turns. That’ll add some population and put enough into the RND to complete it the end of Turn 64. The galley is at one turn (~61/65) and I’ll be able to get it out in a hurry if needed. I move the slinger out to the mouth of the River Avon. That reveals a barbarian camp:




The camp and the tile to its southwest are both coastal. If I had to guess that’s the end of the landmass there and it extends a bit further south in order to fully enclose the lake. I’ll see what the city-state units do before deciding whether to hang around for a camp snipe or keep exploring. I also move the warrior towards Armagh – a check of what the city-state is up to can’t hurt. The AI might also recall one or more of its units, which frees up the camp for some harassment (though I don’t have Discipline slotted).

Out west I fortify the warrior on the new Location ‘D’. Likewise I bring the scout southeast on the hill. In light of our recent discussions I’m going to skirt the western edge of the mountain ranges down to the desert then work down the coast. The injured warrior will move out to the coast in the Ogaden Desert then backtrack up to Compo to heal. Topping the desert hill the warrior fully reveals this rather small desert:




I don’t think that’s worth settling unless I’ve got or to burn. Settlervision does reveal that there’s a city to the southwest – the plains hill SE of the mountain is third ring to something (or someone). I’ll move southwest next turn and see if being on the hill shows me city-state or Canadian borders, though it’s likely the former.

No changes in great person generation this turn. Interesting to note that anyone in a Tier 1 government is NOT in Classical Republic as there’s no fractional GPP generation going on. Woden gained 5 empire points, I’ll take that as either a city and a settler or some other combination. I’ll take a guess next turn. Canada remains at three cities.

Next turn I get to join the Big Boys’ Government Club and complete my first Royal Navy Dockyard.

[Alhambram]

I don’t think that’s worth settling unless I’ve got or to burn.  Settlervision does reveal that there’s a city to the southwest – the plains hill SE of the mountain is third ring to something (or someone).  I’ll move southwest next turn and see if being on the hill shows me city-state or Canadian borders, though it’s likely the former.

I disargees with you here, you should settle that little desert at roughly same time as horse tile. Settle at coast and you can get +4 adjaceny for RND, and put aqueduct at tile where warrior stands now for housing.
Indeed spot is not strong from start but after some love from builders it becomes decent city, seafoodresources boosted by lighthouse plus mined plains hills for decent production.
Desert hills can be filled with districts, campus for example SW of desert steam fissure. Main reason to settle here is to deny Canada from settling here and one more RND city.

Note about governments, going in classical republic nets us extra era points since nobody has them according GP screen. But at other hand we wants oligrachy for Armagh.
Going for Classical Republic first and then Oligrachy is option but with many RND classical republic is long term better government. We can attempt to swap back from Oligrachy but it means several turns anarchy.
Therefore it seems better to stick with your orginal plan: start with Oligrachy and capture city states. Afterwards we can go in classical republic.

And I suggest going for Military Training as next civic goal, it unlocks Veterancy policy card which give 30% production discount for RND and its buildings too. We need to research Military Tradition and Games&Recreation first.
We already got euerka for Miltary Tradition by razing dozen barb camps, Games&Recreation is boosted by finishing Construction tech which we are going for. Military Training is boosted by finishing encampment, you did toss down it in Truly alrwady.
Regarding Construction tech it is boosted by having watermill in any city. Watermill is unlocked with wheel which we lacks, wheel's euerka is mining a resource and only mineable resource for us is desert iron.
Maybe after all buy tiles for iron at Compo and mine iron? Then build watermill in Truly or Compo.
Every time that tech or civic is almost 60%, swap to other tech/civic to research if euerka is coming soon. This way we can catch up with others a little.

[suboptimal]

Yes, that site could be a reasonable city. However, I disagree that we need to settle here around the same time as the horse city, for a couple of reasons. First, if the horse city is settled then there isn't anywhere between the existing city and the coastal area that Canada can settle. With Horse Hill and Mountain Pass settled the remaining legal city sites would be:




Everything between the coast and the line of square-tagged pins. That city would likely be under some strong loyalty pressure and, as you say, require lots of builder love to become productive.

I also can't justify settling this city that soon after Horse Hill because of the land over in this direction:




There are anywhere between 2 and 4 good city sites up here - Locations F (coastal forest NE of Truly) and H (cattle NE of Kilimajaro) both have +3 RNDs, better production, way better food and will require less builder love to get going. The rice river valley is sort of meh but there's likely a reasonably good spot along the lake east/northeast of Armagh. I don't see how settling these sites, particularly the two up at Kilimanjaro, isn't a better option than the desert. I think the rapid start up potential of the cities up here far outweighs the possibility the Canada would settle a non-ideal location down here. The question becomes which cities get these settlers out and when?

Regarding government my plan is to take Oligarchy and stay in it until I complete the Ancestral Hall and capture Armagh. After that I'll likely switch over to Classical Republic and then slot the legacy policy if (when) I go after Geneva and whatever is southwest in the fog. For civics we're on the same wavelength regarding a beeline to Military Training. I'm going to go for Games & Recreation next, pausing to complete Military Tradition for the start of Turn 65 to get the policy swap. Games & Recreation is only 9 turns at current yields and will go down with city growth, particularly as Cleggy adds population over the next several turns (Pop 4 EoT62, Pop 5 EoT 67).

I don't see getting Construction before then feasible. There's too much tech tree in the way (Horseback Riding is 5 turns out from now, Masonry and Wheel are both 7 turns and the cities that could build a water mill (Truly, Compo) are busy until the mid 70's. I agree that holding techs for boosts as long as possible is a good idea; however, it's getting those boosts that will be puzzling to figure out.

What I could do is skip the third galley build at Compo and use the time to get a builder out. I could use that builder to quarry a stone (Foggy or Mountain Pass), though the cost to purchase that iron would be north of 200 - is that worth it? Dunno. Yes, it's two boosts but I don't know that there'd be 200+ on hand by that point in time. The unconventional alternative would be to not settle 'E' on the iron but put it on the coast southeast. That removes the city from being on fresh water and prevents canal usage of the lake in exchange for a "free" iron mine (getting more out of it in the process), a semi-free quarry (with a single second ring tile purchase) and a +4 RND with a first ring forest chop. An eventual lighthouse and granary would likely be all the city needs from a production standpoint.

[suboptimal]

Turn 61

Political Philosophy is complete. Time for a new government. I’m going with Oligarchy, at least through the capture of Armagh. I leave Urban Planning in place, Agoge takes the military slot and I put Colonization in the wildcard. For the diplomatic slot I take Charismatic Leader for the time being for faster envoy generation. I’ll be able to swap that for Diplomatic League before completing a galley (if I want two envoys in Geneva) or going exploring and possibly getting a first meet bonus for any island city-states that are out there. Government and policies set I leave the settler at Foggy to build for one more turn. That additional turn will have the effect of getting the settler train running slightly earlier and reduce my overflow losses on the first settler out. I start Games and Recreation and will change over to Military Tradition during Turn 63 in order to have a policy swap on Turn 65.

Up at Cleggy the builder goes chop for 38. That completes the Royal Navy Dockyard, gets me the boost for Mathematics, gets me 3 and 2 Great Admiral Points per turn. The city starts a Harbor Shipping project (first of two) and I’m officially in the race for Themistocles. The city will expand next turn and the new citizen will work the unimproved elephants, further boosting its yields.

Down at Compo the builder moves into the jungle east of the city. Next turn’s chop will put just over 29roductio: into the RND and boost the city to 3 population. Once that chop happens I’ll move Magnus back to Foggy in preparation for settler builds.

The Armagh warriors have the camp surrounded so I move the slinger down to the horses by the lake. That fully reveals the lake:




I expect there to be a narrow strip of land on the eastern shore of the lake. The slinger also reveals a 3-charge builder standing in the fog. Hmmm...that’s a possible solution to some of my problems. Lurkers, is a builder poach within the rules for city-state pillaging? If so, I might consider attempting to take that builder for some eurekas and improvements. I also decide to bring my warrior northwards as I feel a bit more comfortable having it near my cities for defense rather than hanging out down here.

Over in the western part of my world the northern warrior and scout both head on their appointed paths. The southern warrior moves onto the coastal plains hill to see if anything appears out of the fog. Yup, city-state borders:




Another religious city-state. I think I’ll pass on meeting them for the time being and send the warrior to Compo next turn. If it were cultural, science or economic I’d meet them to get a yield quest but I don’t need faith and meeting them might risk meeting Canada.

Internationally I’ve fallen to last place in the milpower ratings despite hitting 96 with last turn’s warrior build. Canada was in last place last turn with something less than 73 milpower and jumped to second place last turn. This is one reason why I want to bring my warrior north, possibly even all the way to Cleggy – I’m starting to get concerned about being discovered and losing a coastal city to a galley poach.

Archery will complete next turn and I think I’ll go for Horseback Riding. That’ll give me the option of getting a horseman out somewhere and leave enough time to complete Irrigation before the settlers start coming out.

[Alhambram]

Too bad that we missed that one religious city state for Polticial Philoshopy euerka, but what done is done.
At other hand that means that loyalty pressure from Canada is weaker than initially thought.

Couple thoughts: when galleys dealt with Armargh, a idea to have them capture another religious city state?
In that case we need some cities of own in area plus more military as horsemen/swordsmen to safeguard new conquest.

You make a good point about not strong desert city. But I notice that there is a stronger spot: 2 tiles NW of where warrior is standing upon. It leaves one more weak city spot 1W of iron which can settle much later.
Strong city got wine resources in 1st and 2nd ring for food and growth and same time a lot production. Indeed it is closer Canadian border but since revealed city SW isn't Canadian, loyalty is less a problem.
We can manage loyalty by assigning Victor or policy cards plus help from our other cities. In long term combined with capture of that religious city state we can attempt to flip that Canadian city.

Regarding city state builder, rules states no pillaging/farming. If you capture builder and wait for Armagh to produce another builder, that is a form of farming.
You can declare now and finish conquest rougly 10 turns later with arrival of galleys, but in meantime we have 10 turns to do whatever we want with Armagh which is walking upon tighrope at rules made.
To avoid controversy I would wait till galleys arrives. Militarywise it is also wiser to wait for galleys, there is warrior in city and one warrior/slinger won't crack it, moreover 2 warriors of Armagh in north would beeline back to city and kill slinger.

[suboptimal]

If we can get Mountain Pass, Horse Hill and capture both Geneva and the religious city-state to the south I think Canada would be precluded from expanding in this direction. In looking at the available resources and chops it might be possible to use Mountain Pass and Magnus to jungle chop out a settler for that NW location with Colonization and a Serfdom builder. On founding Mountain Pass I'll be using a stone harvest and one jungle chop with the initial free builder, putting the yields into either an Encampment (if Veterancy is slotted) or an Aqueduct (that might be the best way to get the Engineering boost). That would leave three stone and a jungle for settler chops. That also lets Foggy work on getting settlers out for the back lines, though at a reduced rate. Truly could get into the chopping game, I suppose, to get one out as well.

I agree that with those cities it might be possible, with further improvements there and at Horse Hill (Theater Square, Entertainment Complex as the first two districts) to attempt to flip that city. However, we'd likely need a 2-promoted Amani and several great works to start that process.

After Armagh I'm thinking the two galleys can promote immediately after conquest, move to Compo to finish healing and then take that other religious city-state. I'd likely also use the northern galleys to take Geneva, though that would be a bit more of a drawn-out process since only one could attack at a time.

Taking the builder now is a definite stretch of the rules, which is why I asked. However, I think if the opportunity presents itself we can declare war on the city-state while the galleys are en route.

What do you think of relocating the city at 'E' away from the canal position so that we can get an iron mine and quarry down using its free builder? The new location would be the jungle SE o the iron.