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This is gonna be good: von Adlercreutz and Taotao

(October 9th, 2015, 01:46)reddog Wrote: ok, lets ditch MoM if you think is to risky and not worth is your game in the end i just wanted to show some options and how i would have played.I usualy sacrifice some things to win other.I never was concerned about defensive position of cities, becasue if you are in defence you already lose, not necesary to whom atack you but the others.

I am stil happy to be in team with you , and if you can provide an actualized sandbox i will do some tries myself, and for when you are gone i will falow your microplan.i will just log once in while to see how the civ is developing.

Hi!
I'm sorry if I've sounded to harsh on the MoM plan. The truth is I'm really on the edge here as to what is better and I definitely could be willing to try it out!
The thing is, since you think MoM is a good idea I've been trying to take the opposite side in the debate so both sides get their say.
If we go calendar first I, however, want to make a fairly strong run at MoM as that is (in my eyes) the real prize of that tech route (while still managing some kind of expansion towards REM).

The reason I want defensible positions is not so much a question of winning that defensive war. Actually, if this was a duel I might not be concerned about that either. It's more that by having a strong defensive position against DZ he'll see that there's not much of a point in attacking me, even if our army is up north ravaging REMs territory. Or vice versa; if we have strong defensive positions against REM, he'll not bother taking a costly city from us when we are using our cultural control in the south to 1-turn DZs flatland city located just outside capital borders...
It's pretty much why we send a decent escort when settling cities in border areas. It prevents opportunistic strikes when the opponent asks that one important question: is it worth it?*

*this might not hold true for some emotional aggressive players like Bacchus or CH, but for most people it does matter
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(October 9th, 2015, 02:06)reddog Wrote: We are last to play. I started a library in capitol as i think we want to grow , let the worker finish theyr duties and will end turn so no keep others waiting for us.
Oh, that was a quick turn.
Good that you're playing smile
Yeah, we definitely want to grow the capital up to size 6 at least. Might be that I would've gone another unit to send up north, but as the library will be really helpful it's definitely a good choice too.
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(October 9th, 2015, 02:19)taotao Wrote:
(October 9th, 2015, 02:06)reddog Wrote: We are last to play. I started a library in capitol as i think we want to grow , let the worker finish theyr duties and will end turn so no keep others waiting for us.
Oh, that was a quick turn.
Good that you're playing smile
Yeah, we definitely want to grow the capital up to size 6 at least. Might be that I would've gone another unit to send up north, but as the library will be really helpful it's definitely a good choice too.

I think we will want to atack DZ first( he is way a weaker player then muffin,i played a game with him,muffin, and is strong player so atacking him will be suicidal and him will not atack us if we are strong enough as he is a very logical person ,he is a doctr after all),he has just second city setled so he will fall behind so fast i can see us after mathemathics gathering money for few turn and even considering construction , all depends how much land we can get.Anyway i think if we go with your plan will be betr to get a second worker down so we can chop a granary very fast as well as here we have 3 food resources, i still prefere the jungle but i can see the merit of plant on marble althouth a 1/3/3 tile at this stage of game is a great tile.
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Ok I'll do a post on the situation of the world on t50 in between here as I started writing this some time ago... smile

Our neighbours:
Donovan Zoi is our closest neighbour. Generally a nice fellow to have next to you, but this time he’s sporting aggressive impis and at times I’ve worried more than a little bit about this threat. DZ had one of the fishing starts and he’s used that to grow his capital tall. At size 6 it’s one of the biggest cities so far, but otherwise I don’t know if he has that much going for him? His second city was founded on t35, presumably for copper and so far he hasn’t managed to settle a third city. What could upset the tables still is that a few turns back he produced 3 impis that I presume he’s sent out to take out or at least cripple an opponent. Should that be successful (say that he could take HAKs capital for instance) he could still be in with a good shot here, but the likelier scenario is that he’ll stay small but thorny. In the future I do see DZs land as our land, but when that'll happen is still very unclear.

To the opposite side of Donovan we have Really Evil Muffin. Otherwise similar to us, REM has a slightly stronger expansion trait in the imperialistic ideas he pushing. Unlike most people he managed to beat us to both 3 and 4 cities, albeit with perhaps slightly worse initial worker support. Our border with REM is set to become shorter than that with DZ, but not necessarily any less conflict ridden as he’s got some prime real estate on his side that I can’t help but long for. In a possible future conflict one good thing is that unlike most Civs (?) REM has his capital on flatland, but on the other hand we probably don’t want to be on the receiving end of a rush as he decided to go for super early Ironworking (even though he had copper nearby). I actually haven’t seen a scout from REM so far, so it’s possible that we haven’t been scouted by him at all. This is nothing I would count on though…

Our last neighbor at this point is Serdoa and Noble located to our east. These guys I guess could become really strong with time, but for now they’re sitting on three cities and are not much of a concern as they’re bound to have better avenues of expansion than immediately stealing prime land from us. Still, this border is one that could be suffering if we direct too much resources to wonders or similar instead of expansion.

possible map composition:



Apart from our direct neighbours we’ve also made contact with two other civs, both to our north. Keeping REM in check we have forever dangerous Commodore on one side. Though I haven’t seen his borders yet I believe Com might be to REMs east. Commodore has so far a very similar opening to ours, only slightly behind in the expansion. One thing that actually speaks against us attacking REM in the future is that, if successful, we’d probably open ourselves up with a long border against the culturally strong Commodore and that’s something generally best avoided. Also, presumably bordering REM, is Elkad. On the surface Elkads doing decently with his 3 cities, but looking at CivStats it seems he founded them on t41 and t46 which simply is way too late. If I could buy his map I probably would, as Elkad’s likely to be the first to send out exploring workboats, but map info might not be enough to save this (luckily aggressive) fellow when Commodore (or REM) comes a knockin’.


Other people possibly worth mentioning:

HitAnyKey was the fellow who landed Buddhism. He later followed that up with the Oracle and now has a leg and a half up on a delicious shrine. Still he stayed put on one size 3 city until t47 or something crazy like that and even if he now has 5 pop in two cities I wouldn’t want to trade with him.

AdrienIer in turn founded Hinduism, but after that I haven’t really kept track on him. A look at Civstats now suggests he built a city on t50, but nothing in between that and t35, so my guess is he got to a decent two city start, has grown a bit and built a few fast workers and might now start a first expansion wave. Still, this is only speculation.
(As for Judaism I didn’t pay enough attention to be able to pair it with any person in particular. I guess time will have to tell…)

Dtay is his normal self and has gotten off to a splendid start. On t40 he landed Stonehenge and I believe he even had 3 cities already at that point goodjob He’s since then followed that up with being second (?) to four cities on t46, so yeah, one to watch out for…

Yuri I think deserves a mention simply because I had him at the bottom of the pile in my rankings. He has, however, done well for himself by focusing on the imperialistic part of his combo instead of the religious route and if I’m counting correctly he founded his 5th city on t50. Still, his main problem is generally not a lack of knowledge or empire management, but simply the absence of aggression so we’ll just have to see if this cat can grow some claws.

Other than this it’s hard to say much as score doesn’t say that much about development yet at this point. For instance I had plako as one of the favourites before the game, but here he is dead last. Still, he’s at 3 cities and has probably done a little bit of a beeline to some tech. Who knows maybe we’ll see a notice of Taoism being founded in a german city soon or something crazyeye
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Will play the turn later tonight, but here I've attached an updated save for t54.
The sandbox should otherwise be correct, but I believe has 2 more gold than we do in the real game and is 2 beakers behind.


Attached Files
.zip   Zara_t54_uptodate.zip (Size: 304.31 KB / Downloads: 1)
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Ok, so I’m been thinking about this a bit.
How about we make a compromise?
City 5 (Jutas) is settled on marble, but we decide to try and land MoM?
I’m just getting to grips with how cheap everything is on this map and (as earlier noted) initial trade routes won’t be worth that much, so we should be able to delay currency for a while anyhow. Besides, going for wonders is fun nod and it can help you keep focused.

To that end I tried writing down the start to a micro plan. I leave it up to you if you’ll follow it while I’m away, but this is probably what I’d do (well, starting at least).
There’s two things I haven’t accounted for though.
First off (by following this route) I managed to set up the capital so that it got its mines ready on t73-74 and a worker that could be whipped on t72 with 48h overflow. Only problem being that we can actually get calendar one turn earlier than expected on t72 (this would’ve gotten MoM t80, but think we can do better...)
Secondly I must’ve had a mis-click when opening up the game today as a worker had moved into wrong position. I’ve thought of a way to work around this, and it might even be better in some ways, but there could be small inconsistencies between the plan (including the sandbox I sent) and the real game (instead of putting 3t into a cottage 1NE of Pyhäjoki we build a road on the forested hill 2E of Oravainen).

t53
Lapua whip settler.
Worker 1NE of marble starts roading.
Worker 2E of Oravainen starts roading

t54
Pyhäjoki finish work boat that nets clams. City start working those while building a granary.
Worker on horse move 1E to grassland forest.
Settler in Lapua move to marble. (spear covers).
Worker 1S of Oravainen move S-SE to forested hill between Lapua and Pyhäjoki

t55
Jutas is founded on marble. Starts library working forested hill.
Worker near Jutas move SE-S onto said hill. (axe covers while spear either joins axe or fortifies in city).
(warrior in Jutas move 2N).
Worker on grass hill between Lapua and Pyhäjoki starts chopping (make sure chop will go to Lapua)
Worker 1N of Revolahti starts chopping.
Worker 2E of Oravainen move 3W4S to forest just south of Pyhäjoki
Oravainen has grown to size 6 - make sure it has warrior mp

t56
Library finished in Oravainen. Put one turn into an axe.
Revolahti has finished library, should switch to worker.
Worker 1S of Pyhäjoki starts to chop.
Worker 1S of Jutas starts to chop.

t57
Mathematics is in. turn research to 0% and start masonry.
Chop is in in Revolahti, switch to granary to catch those hammers.
Oravainen grows to size 7, switch to settler. Make sure city is working plains hill mine and not unimproved silk!

t58
Worker between Lapua and Pyhäjoki starts mining? <- yes according to plan, but might be better ideas.
Jutas gets chop into library. Switch tile it works to regular grassland forest.
Revolahti switch back to building worker
^ Worker 1N of Revolahti move 2E (phf)

t59
Jutas has finished library, starts a worker.
Worker 1S of Jutas starts a road.
Worker 1S of Pyhäjoki moves to pigs and starts pasturing.
^ Worker E-NE of Revolahti starts chopping
Science up to 100%

t60
Lapua finish axe starts a spear.
Masonry is in, start sailing.
Axe from Lapua move north towards city 6.

t61
Borders have popped in Jutas and our worker can move 1SW onto sheep and start improving those.
(Jutas can switch to work unimproved riverside rice while waiting for pasture to finish).
(Grass mine has finished near Lapua, but it can continue working furs instead?)
Whip granary in Pyhäjoki

t62
Granary finished in Pyhäjoki, starts library.
Pig-pasture outside Pyhäjoki has finished, make sure to work that instead of clams
Worker between Lapua and Pyhäjoki move NW and put 1t into a cottage in passing.
^ Worker finished in Revolahti. Switch back to granary
^ Worker ”north” of Revolahti move to oasis.

Unsolved issue what to do with worker in Revolahti. Plan was to move towards city 6, but that totally wastes 2 turn-actions

t63
Sailing finished. Start Calendar
Settler finished in Oravainen, start worker

Some explanations what I'm trying to do:

When Oravainen has finished its library it is at size 6 and we'd like to start a settler for the north soon. However, delaying by just one turn mean we can grow to size 7 (have the happy cap to do so) and the settler comes out the same turn as we can build it with two extra food-hammers from the plains hill mine (while working all cottages).
In general here I'm trying to not whip the capital as it still has a bit of whip-unhappy and every extra happy person give us better options when doing the actual build of MoM (whether through working extra mines or whip-overflow...

The worker by the cottage by Oravainen move to the Lapua-forest and chops so that Lapua can finish its cottage at the perfect time for growth size 3-4.

The worker east of Oravainen move far along the road network to forest south of Pyhäjoki. The forest it'll chop means the city can whip granary at size 2, but perhaps main reason is that this way it is timed to start pasturing the pigs on the turn the borders pop.

We basically have two cities in the empire capable of producing settlers atm. The cap and Lapua. Sadly, as I've abused Lapua quite a lot it really wants to grow for a little bit before starting a new settler. That means the next settler (going towards imperialistic REM) almost has to come from the cap. Lapua could use a barracks at some point, but for now I think it's more important that we have an adequate number of units when closing in on the red borders.

Revolahti isn't getting much love currently. I want the chops to go into a granary so that we get full food bonus from size 3-4. This city will be slow to grow for some time, but perhaps it can steal the wheat from Lapua while that is building a worker some time in the future? If we're settling two cities up here in the north any time soon more workers are going to be needed.

I'm not sure what to do with the worker that has improved Revolahtis pigs afterwards. I could get it to Jutas just in perfect time to chop into a granary (like you said you wanted), but it might be of more need up at Oravainen if we try to improve on the MoM eta. Also, 3 workers round Jutas does sound slightly excessive if we're not about to settle other cities in the region anytime soon.
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You want me play this turn or you will take it?
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sorry, yeah If you could play from now on for a week it'd be Great. Do whatever you feel is best smile
Might ve that I'll have internet and will be able to check in here from time to time, but it's nothing I can count on.
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I see you are back.
After seeing the map i decided(you said do whatever is beter) we need to expand very hard as there is alot of good land and there are loads of cities with 2 foods and with some special tiles(see 2 gems) , i would went IW if we had cities ready to work that, but afte doing some math i think we will have pop to work those just after we finish IW.I think is worth to chop every single fores whip so we get cities asap and a pink dot for Muffin is excelent(becasue of that i decide to build more workers).I hope i didnt destroyed too much what you wanted but when i saw all that food and rivers..
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(October 18th, 2015, 06:21)reddog Wrote: I see you are back.
After seeing the map i decided(you said do whatever is beter) we need to expand very hard as there is alot of good land and there are loads of cities with 2 foods and with some special tiles(see 2 gems) , i would went IW if we had cities ready to work that, but afte doing some math i think we will have pop to work those just after we finish IW.I think is worth to chop every single fores whip so we get cities asap and a pink dot for Muffin is excelent(becasue of that i decide to build more workers).I hope i didnt destroyed too much what you wanted but when i saw all that food and rivers..
Hi!
Yeah I'm back and have taken a look at what you've done while I've been away smile
Really had expected us to be en route to calendar now so was a bit surprised when I saw currency as our next tech, but in general I'm fond of what you've done. Especially I'm happy to see that we have 7 workers now, those sure will come in handy nod
I take it you mean for us to go currency first now followed by IW and settling cities for the two jungled gems asap?

You said you liked the idea of a pink dot towards muffin. Do you mean the pigs/gems/marble city or are you thinking about trying for the gold? And in what order if going for gold? Already with the settler that can come out in 2t from Revolahti?





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