[SPOILERS] Team EggHeads: DMOC and TeddyKGB (Now Lurker-Friendly!)

[TeddyKGB]

Something interesting going on?

[DMOC]

@Turn 12 report post.

I agree with scout move 2-3 next turn. And 9-6 or 9-3 on T14 probably. Our capitals borders expand on T25 so we'll get some visibility in this area.

Early Monarchy is definitely should be part of our strategy. I can't see how we can run for Mids in current situation even if we find Stone next turn.
I'll post something on my view of our mid-term goals later.

And our ranks on Demo screen looks 'awesome', but we expected that.

Yes, we definitely need an early Monarchy (as I've said too many times here ). Ideally, I'd like our capital to be 2-3 population points higher than most of the other capitals in this game, and we're going to need Hereditary Rule.

@post #270 with C&D analysis.

Great summary on other teams openings. Its not important, but I'm pretty sure team CareBears have 17 land and 4 water tiles in BFC.

1. Same reasoning as #9 down the list, only I think due to starting with Fish/Agr that they're headed for AH.
2. They started with fishing and mining, so they can work 3H off the bat. On the last turn before the workboat is completed, they can switch from 3H to a tile like 2F 1H 1C (e.g. our deer) and still get the workboat out, but this lets them net a coastal fish and grow in 4 more turns (rather than 5) and thus I assume they are at size 2 (w/zero food overflow) on turn 12 and are almost certainly making a worker. Worldbuilder simulations showed that even with financial fish worked, it's not enough to speed up Agriculture to get it on turn 9, so turn 10 is the most likely bet. The Wheel is not the tech they researched because average rival power did not change.
3. I'm pretty sure this is right, as I tested it in WB where if we work a tile with 1 commerce with the first citizen, AH comes in on turn 13, explaining the lack of score increases.
4. They were the only one to get a tech increase last turn, and on turn 12, average rival power was at 2777 (from 2444 last turn) but another team had grown in population, so the 2000 power generated by AH seems right. But what I'm confused about is that they started with Hunting and Agriculture, so if they worked a tile with 1 commerce, they should have finished Animal Husbandry on turn 11, not turn 12.
5. They started with Fishing/Agriculture, so going worker first is straightforward with a 3H tile. Since it doesn't give commerce, they had to wait until turn 7 to get Hunting, as compared to Team Pony which got it a turn earlier (as that team didn't have to work a 3H tile). The rival average power also went up on turn 7. With Agriculture and Hunting, they are likely researching Animal Husbandry.
6. They were the only ones to get a score increase on turn 8, and the average power went up (Mining gives 2000 soldiers). Since they are expansive, it makes sense for them to work a 3H tile and start with a worker. Also, since their starting techs were Mysticism and Agriculture, they have either rice, wheat, or corn in their capital, showing that the starts are not mirrored.
7. Since they moved their settler inland (first 9 tiles are land) and start with Myst/Mining, they started with a worker while working a 1-commerce tile, thus allowing Agriculture to be done in 9 turns (i.e. done on turn 10).
8. They were the first to get a score increase (on turn 6), and since they started with Wheel/Agriculture, they must have gotten either Hunting or Fishing. However, the rival average power went up, so Hunting it ls. With Hunting and Agriculture, they might be researching Animal Husbandry.
9. They started with Fishing/Mining, so the logical tech is Bronze Working, which takes even longer than AH to research. Starting with Fishing, they probably built a workboat, but then I think they immediately started on a worker after that, thus explaining why they are at size 1 while Team Dinosaurs is at size 2. But they might have been sloppy in micromanagement and thus might not grow until turn 13. If their score doesn't change next turn, we can assume they're building a worker.

3. More reason to be sure M&M on AH is rival best GNP=21 for first turns. (I'm wrong here, read next item on the list)

4. If they worked +1cpt tile, their BPT=FLOOR((8+1+1+1)*1.4)=15. On T11 AH at 165/169 for them. So AH done on T12 is normal for them, I guess. And now I see I was wrong about GNP21 is M&M's only possibility.

5. I'm confused here. I thought team Orgy is #5 on your list and they go for WB first. And on T8 they start working improved Fish while researching AH. So they get max food=7 and max GNP=24 on T8 demo screen (which was taken after they finish T8).

To address your three points:

- M&M definitely researched AH, as they got it last turn.
- Okay, so maybe they did get AH on turn 12.
- That was a typo, I definitely meant to say they opened up with a workboat.

@post #271 about micro.

Honestly, in my calculations and later sim I was concentrated on MIT micro. I was sloppy with capitals micro. Glad you improved it.

I was never worked unimproved fish. As I remember, I worked 2/1/0 tile instead 0/3/0 for 1-2 turns. Its up to be decided later.
T44 for BW dont require us to work unimproved fish.

Worker from capital on T44 wasnt intentional. T43 is better obv, thx. And we dont want any overflow from worker, like I get on T44. In this case, overflow is a bad thing, I think.

I will look into possibility to revolt before city#3 settler done. It could get us faster settler for city#3, and we can play with overflow to transform food to hammers here. I dont think delaying slavery is better here.
Yes, I understand you want to revolt while settler on the move. But, imo, its not a big thing here. We'll lose our both big cities production for one turn anyway. And if faster slavery means faster city#3 - its worth it, imo.
We are still have some time to decide and do sims. Maybe slowbuild+chopping is better.

Some slider notes.
I put slider on 50% on T32 and on 0% on T33-34.
On T32 we have 10 commerce output, so its safe to play with slider as you like and not loosing any beaker cause rounding down.
Its possible to keep slider at 100% on T32 as well.
Our next tech goal is Pottery, we dont care much about Agri timing. So slider is TBD to get us Pottery fastest possible.

One more thing, and its kinda funny.
We can build StoneHenge!
Well, not build, but put 2h in it for failed gold latter. As I remember, our 2h in warrior will decay after workboat finished, so we can put Barracks or SH in build queue on T24 for 1 turn.

Good to know. I guess this just means it's all the more important that we get our micromanagement plan written down clearly, as we had for our original turn 0 thorugh 33 plan. The goals of the micro will be to get both the second city and the capital developed ASAP while working improved tiles and to get fast 3rd and 4th cities with sufficient defense.

Some random thoughts on micro.

Safety of the worker.
Our worker go out of culture border on T26-27 and come back on T28. If forest will grow on MIT tile before, its one more turn.
We have a warrior to cover, and there should be no enemy warrior near at the time. But its a risk still, with unlucky roll vs animal or Bear. Do you like we preroad MIT still?
Next, we'll have our worker on cow and gold tiles with single warrior to cover. Its could be a gamble too.
I think our worker action close to optimal now, but there is a risk involved and maybe we'll be forced to change it.

I hope a forest doesn't grow on one of the two tiles we're intending to road, as that would be a disaster to our micromanagement plan. The good news is that once we get a road down, we're guaranteed that the tile is safe from forest growth, so for the hill in our capital we're mining, we're going to "secure" it from forest spreads soon.

I still want to keep our roading plan at MIT, but we'll evaluate it on a turn-by-turn basis.

that plains tile S of the wheat would make a great production site

That's a corn tile.

[DMOC]

To all:

(1) I may have been wrong about M&M researching Animal Husbandry. They got a score increase last turn, indicating a tech, but the rival average power did not change (i.e. still 2777). So what else could they have researched that would have taken them as long to finish AH?
(2) I agree with the scout 9-6 next. We should start meeting the other teams in a few turns.
(3) Tonight, I plan to post a more detailed micromanagement plan that will take us to about turn 45 that DOESN'T involve revolting to slavery before the settler(s) get completed in the capital. Then we might compare with another plan that involves slaving the settler to completion. Remember our goals are to (a) develop the two cities we have ASAP by improving their best tiles, (b) have sufficient defenses/military, and © get the 3rd and 4th cities up and running quickly.

[TeddyKGB]

It's all make little sense to me with M&M tech.
From T0 I was sure they are on AH because max rival GNP=21. Today I learned that in fact Bow/Aivo was on GNP21 from T0. And now this strange tech timing for M&M.

There is only 3 possible tech for them: Fish, Pottery and Myst. And they had to switch to it after put some beakers in another tech.
Select wrong start tech on T0?
Suddenly decide to run for religion or SH?
Did it intentionally to confuse other teams C&D?
I'm confused.

EDIT: And its kinda funny to read that in tech thread.

That is a lot of work. I was afraid of that.

[DMOC]

What's funny is that classical_hero has something like 30,000 posts at CivFanatics.

Also, yeah, I'm confused with M&M as well. Maybe we can ask them their opening if we meet them (and we'll offer to tell ours).

[TeddyKGB]

About M&M tech.
Once again I forget we have screenshots after every team settled.
On T0 Bow/Aivo start with GNP20 not 21. Probably means they start AH while working tile with 0 commerce like PH or nonriverside Pigs.
And on T0 team M&M start with GNP21. So they worked riverside tile while researching AH or Pottery. And switch tech later. Or something else.
We'll see when M&M research next tech, maybe we'll be less confused after.

Its not that important anyway, I guess. Maybe we both spend too much time on C&D.

Another topic, what about 'Archimedes' for our worker name?

EDIT: I'm pretty depressed now after ManUTD lose to Liverpool. So, there could be some drunk posts later tonight. Apologies in advance.

[DMOC]

Yeah, let's set the worker as Archimedes, I forgot about that.

[DMOC]

Turn 14 - 3440 BC

Our worker is now named Archimedes, going with our mathematician theme. We can call him "Worker A" for short, which should help us in our micromanagement plans once we get multiple workers out.



Our scout discovered more fertile land, including dyes (plantations give +4 commerce) and spices (plantations give +1 food and +2 commerce). Sadly, Calendar will probably not be one of our early tech goals, so I'm not sure how effectively we'll be able to use this land just yet.

So where should the scout go now? I'm going to suggest that he go southeast to defog the land east of our capital, but keep in mind that the turn 25 border pop will reveal some of those tiles, so we should move the scout in a way to minimize waste. How does going 3-3 sound? Alternatively, if we want to see the north a bit more we can go 6-9 and get on the hill. According to our micro plan we can have our first warrior guard our worker as he roads outside the borders for 2 turns.



Here are the demographics.



Some thoughts:

(1) Pacal II of Native America were the only team to get a score increase, and they got a tech, which I'm pretty sure is Animal Husbandry, and this is reflected in the increase in average rival power from 2777 last turn to 3000 this turn. (And the change from "rival worst power" 0 to 2000.)

(2) The only team without a third tech is still Gladiator's Glory (Ragnar of Rome) and they're definitely going to get Bronze Working next turn. We should see the average rival power next turn increase substantially, by almost 1000 points.

(3) I'll try to get a detailed micromanagement plan up soon.

(4) When will we start making contact with other teams? I really hope it's soon....

EDIT: Upon second thought, maybe 6-9 is right ... we're not going to need the land directly east of the lake anytime soon (beyond what the capital's border pops are), and I'd like to see a bit more up north before circling back. What do you think?

[Dhalphir]

whoops, I always confuse wheat and corn in their appearances. the point stands, am I reading that right as a good production site?

when does the scout need to be back in our lands?

[DMOC]

whoops, I always confuse wheat and corn in their appearances. the point stands, am I reading that right as a good production site?

when does the scout need to be back in our lands?

It's definitely a strong production site. If there's copper on one of the hills, we might consider that for our third city.

I'm not sure if we even need the scout back in our lands --- our warrior should be enough, but let me verify this in a simulation.