[SPOILERS] Oxy and suttree save the day, again!

[Oxyphenbutazone]

I wanted to wait one more turn before micro, if maga camps the wheat everything changes. Also, note that my suggested city placement was the desert North of the gold. I do believe we want to split off that sheep permanently since it'll do more good in the gold city.

Ok, sounds good

[suttree]

ooh I see you played the turn, did anything happen?

EDIT: Checked things out, no war! Time for the micros....

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Sorry, played the turn literally just as I went out the door

Turn 9



As predicted, M&M did not DOW and instead moved peacefully to the north.



Scout in the south revealed some goodies. Do we want to move NE-NE to the PHF or scout the juicy river corn? I could go either way

Demos:

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Not an ideal response from Maga

Hi HBHR and the peaceful Native American People,



We are very glad that our relations are developing so well J. We also have jungle to our North and our capitol is on a saltwater lake, but the lake is to our West. From what we have seen so far it seems that lands around our capitol are a mirror image of lands around yours. They are not exactly the same, but very similar, for example we have corn instead of your wheat etc.



I have never played a lakes map, so I do not know how it looks like, no opinion here. The Master says it looks more like an Inland Sea map to him. The reason we think so is that we uncovered a saltwater lake bigger than the lake near our capitol in the North. It could be also a large sea in the center of the map, difficult to say, but this saltwater lake is large enough that we do not see another coast. You are also the first civ we have met so far.



We are also very interested in mutually beneficial and peaceful collaboration between our civs, in our experience a long-term Non-Aggression Pact is a best basis for such a collaboration. Therefore, we would like to offer you such Non-Aggression Pact until Turn 150, with possibility of extension further. What do you think about it?



We think that such a pact, except general expression of goodwill towards collaboration, should include border agreement. Our capitol is 15 tiles from you in the West, so to keep it simple we propose to divide lands between us in half (we can later revisit it to negotiate more natural borders by mutual agreement). By “dividing lands in half” we mean that we would both promise not to settle further than 6 tiles away from our respective capitols, leaving a no-settle 1-tile N-S zone in the middle. As I said, later, when we will have better ideas when we want to plant our cities, we can agree that you would plant e.g. one city one “our side” and we will plant one city on your side, it that will look more convenient. But agreeing on division of land between us now should give us both big advantage, it would allow us to focus our efforts on securing land elsewhere , without having to worry about claiming the land between us. We hope that you will also see such agreement as mutually beneficial.



We are also curious where you have been scouting? As I said, our scout traveled East, and discovered your capitol 15 tiles away from ours.



With respect to EP points, could you explain to us why you would like to have EP spending between us restricted? Since neither of us met any other civs yet, we both cannot spend EP points elsewhere at the moment, but we will be happy to discuss it as soon as either of us would have an opportunity to spend EP elsewhere.



We have also met you brilliant son, Kurumi, and he indeed speaks Margarita’s language very fluently J. We are glad that he will be returning from his travels soon, we will be happy to talk with him and to explain to him further parts that may be unclear in English version. The Master is also learning Spanish J, but he is afraid that his command of Spanish is not good enough at this point to communicate with you in that beautiful language. But our Spanish may improve as the game will progresses J.



Best Regards,



Margarita and the Master

[Oxyphenbutazone]

My thoughts

-NAP to turn 150 is too long, I would counter offer with something in the ballpark of 75

-I hate the idea of signing a settling agreement about land that we haven't scouted yet

-Do we want to tell them we've been scouting in a circular pattern around our capital?

-Do we want to set up an information-sharing agreement with regards to making contacts with other civs?

-They make a fair point on the EP agreement pact. Maybe respond by telling them that once we make other contacts we agree to switch off EP spending. Magic ratio is 43/43 for demo graphs

-HBHR, can you post a draft here before responding? This is a very sensitive email that will be extremely important for the future relationship with our eastern neighbours

-Any comments on scouting move? I want to play the turn soonish

[suttree]

Checked in - will write more later. I very much agree we should discuss a draft here before sending - though again, I'm happy with what HBHR decides.

I think 9-9 with the scout, so long as we're continuing with the plan. We loop up to the coast NE of our cap (warrior can get coast N of the cap later) and then head E for contact or return to fogbust for settler/warrior.

>with our eastern neighbours

NobleHelium Wept.

[suttree]

While I'm here: an equal split of land with a Creative civ is not an equal split of land.

[suttree]

OK, I couldn't resist:

>NAP to turn 150 is too long, I would counter offer with something in the ballpark of 75

I plead "no preference", but I don't like the idea of an NAP beyond t60. The problem is the fourth city. If I had an NAP, I would be tempted to plant my fourth city as pink as possible in order to secure contested resources, secure land for backfill, and dump as much culture in to the border area as possible. Use the remaining time in the NAP to research Masonry and build a few units. Sure it would increase tension, but that's what diplomacy is for. Masonry and units cost, but taking that land later costs a heck of a lot more.

If I were explaining it to Maga, I would argue that a long NAP increases the chance of military buildup because it gives both teams an incentive to plant cities they would be otherwise reluctant to settle - then war when the NAP expires. Real peace is an ongoing negotiation based on trust developed over time. So yes, we agree to a fair division of land between our civs, but let's talk about it as both civs expand organically. A good negotiation results in a benefit that accrues to both sides equally - arbitrary land agreements about unknown land (Maga hasn't explored that land either) are not likely to be equal.

>I hate the idea of signing a settling agreement about land that we haven't scouted yet

Agreed.

>Do we want to tell them we've been scouting in a circular pattern around our capital?

Sure, why not. They should know this already. We don't have contact with a civ to the east, and they haven't seen our scout to the west.

>Do we want to set up an information-sharing agreement with regards to making contacts with other civs?

Yes.

>They make a fair point on the EP agreement pact. Maybe respond by telling them that once we make other contacts we agree to switch off EP spending. Magic ratio is 43/43 for demo graphs

Yes. They should have known that this is what we meant.

[suttree]

I think its worth saying straight up in the e-mail that we plan to plant our first cities near to our capitol and do not have plans to settle aggressively at M&M. We hope they do the same, it really is the fastest way to develop, and we believe that conversation is the best way to build trust as our empires grow.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

You and I are on the exact same page Suttree

I really like this:

If I were explaining it to Maga, I would argue that a long NAP increases the chance of military buildup because it gives both teams an incentive to plant cities they would be otherwise reluctant to settle - then war when the NAP expires. Real peace is an ongoing negotiation based on trust developed over time. So yes, we agree to a fair division of land between our civs, but let's talk about it as both civs expand organically. A good negotiation results in a benefit that accrues to both sides equally - arbitrary land agreements about unknown land (Maga hasn't explored that land either) are not likely to be equal.

Our response should definitely stress this line of thinking

As for your concern with the NAP, I'm fine with offering turn 50. I think they might feel a little unsettled by this as the NAP would expire just around the time a misguided axe rush would start to come together and they may think that we picked NA to rush. Maybe include something about how little we want early war.

While I'm here: an equal split of land with a Creative civ is not an equal split of land.

QFE

We need to play a little hardball in these negotiations. HBHR, I'd really like your thoughts on this discussion when you have the chance.

Do you think a chat is a good idea, or should we stick to email?