[SPOILERS] Kaiser and TheArchduke are nice and friendly neighbours

[Kaiser]

Ok, I have read up on your thoughts and much is similar to my own thoughts I posted in CMF's thread. I did not think about Aztecs that much, but I feel it is more a builder game when picking them in this setup.

I believe Wodenjana will play aggressive hence the Norway/Phoenicia pick and the only way to compete is taking England (I believe Vicki is better than Eleanore). England egalizes Norways speed bonus and can egalize the CS advantage with GA's. Though this is mostly a defensive advantage if they should be our neighbor, as we do not have the 50% production bonus for ships but we should be able to get more GA's and some free units.
Best case they are far away, then we can go on a classical offense of our own. If we do not take Victoria, Phoenicia will easily get the first 2-3 GA's and most of the others afterwards. 

Harbors and Free Inquiry should keep England afloat until Renaissance era, that means it can divert resources to keep up in culture as well. I concur that both CIVs should be capable in  and  and best case progress heavily either in the upper or lower branch of the tree (however it will look like) so we can hand Eurekas and Inspirations to the other by finishing techs/civics.

My preferences would be England > Aztecs > Spain to be able to defend against Wodenjana if they should be close. I think England has the strongest denial value and blooms late but it might be that we have to play defensive if Wodenjana is close by.

btw. I am bad at military campaigns, I will need extensive help if it should come to one

[Kaiser]

Large maps should have a total of 20 luxuries I believe (and found on the internet), do you guys have any experience how the distribution could be expected to be so we can guess when Aztec could get to 5 different luxuries to egalise the CS difference?

But then we still hand Woden most of the GA, which gives them near absolute naval superiority. I really feel we have to go with Victoria here, what is your finak verdict?

[TheArchduke]

Yeah, I am leaning towards here, too.

I post it in the thread, and then we decide who plays what.

[Kaiser]

You can choose your preference, I played Japan before in PBEM3 but we should not speak of this, I learned my lesson :D

I think it is important to get a good idea of the tech trees as they are not logically sorted anymore we need to coordinate closely who will go for which Eurekas/Inspirations and finishes the research for the other.

Also, I think we still can discuss on how our starting position will look like, I think there were discussions between starting on the same island/continent vs. separate islands.
Are we going for a religion and Crusade?
Do we have a shot against Russia (no) and Indonesia (yes)?
Will Russia pick Crusade first or WE and Tithe?

My tendency would be to have one island together and then discuss from there how to settle.
One island would help in supporting the other player with military units and would offer save international trade routes. It would be a bit safer against Wodenjana as it also will give more non-coastal spots to improve.

Separate Islands might result in more cities per player on the main island, but that is completely at the discretion of the mapmaker, so could turn up opposite.

Also playing order, do we want Japan or England to play first. I disagree with Woden that the turn order disadvantage is negligible, sure you can try to plan for it but the later you play, the more effort you have to invest/divert from other goals to achieve your GP.
How did we end up with the CIV with the doublepick being first player?

[TheArchduke]

One Island together is the better play.

I think we will have 2nd or even 3rd dibs on religion with Russia and China with Stonehenge. From that I think both DotF and Crusade will be taken. I did not see China coming to be honest.

I am not too scared of Indonesia, people tend to overvalue UUs WILDLY. But we do need to plan our cities with a bit of defensiveness in mind. I still think we can rush someone, but probably not Norway or Carthage.

[Kaiser]

You are the vet here, so if you say rush, I will follow even when I argue against it . We can rush anybody besides Norway/Phoenicia :D

China religion play is dependent on stone and a HS though, I pointed this as an alternative in the other thread but I am not so sure that Japan will loose the race that clearly, it forces Japan to invest heavily in a religion though.
So if Japan goes for a religion, it likely means 2 HS + 1, better 2 shrines as a minimum and then thumb twiddling in the hope of China not having stone close by.
The question is how urgent we want a religion and/or if we want others to over-invest getting it.

I would suggest England to play first to have a better shot at getting the GA's it wants, here is hoping that Wodenjana decide for Norway first, which is unlikely. This also might help Japan getting a dark age in medieval to benefit from Monasticism, as England can try to hit certain era score boni first.

I tested this a bit:
- 1 tile sea access is basically unconquerable by naval melee only, leave an Archer in the city and see it healing up
- 2 tile sea access can be conquered by Naval Melee without interference, 2 Archers or better walls stop this though, better bring units
- 3 tile sea access is a hard fight to defend by land, walls and multiple Archers necessary and we have to hope for a limited amount of attackers
- 4 tile sea access should be avoided

Any preference between playing Japan and England?

[Kaiser]

Some quick overview:

Russia religion invest:
2 Lavra @ ~30 each - religion in 15-20 turns depending on finish date of the 2nd Lavra

Japan religion invest:
2 HS @ ~30 each - religion in 30-37 turns depending on finish date of the 2nd HS
can spead up by building a Shrine @ 70 each shrine will likely speed up religion by ~10 turns

China religion invest:
1 HS @ ~58 + Stonehenge @ 180 (alternatively 6 builder charges or a mixture, 6 builder charges are minimum 77 ) can be 1t after finishing the HS when properly prepared

Indonesia/Australia/England/Norway/China (non-Stonehenge) religion invest:
2 HS @ ~58 - religion in 30-37 turns depending on finish date of the 2nd HS
can spead up by building a Shrine @ 70 each shrine will likely speed up religion by ~10 turns

All depending on when HS can be finished of course, Japan has a good shot at getting 2nd religion and HS are also the best district on a water map to use for district discounts.
Going Astrology (2 HS for ~60 ) into Writing (1 Campus at @ ~36 ) lets Japan build 3 districts cheaper than other CIVs can build 2. Encamptments are less important and more situational on water heavy maps and theatre districts are ... well theatre districts ...

We are the only team with 2 reduced cost districts available and should leverage that into district discounts. It will be a bit harder for England as Celestial Navigation is a Classical tech and it likely does not want to delay placing its first districts that long.

[Kaiser]

Some references

[Kaiser]

Btw, I live in Europe, thraw in the US, so the time slot will become a bit tricky, you are also situated in Europe, correct?

[TheArchduke]

Yes, CET, in Austria. I am on the fence. I prefer Japan but it played some time ago.

If you feel you have the district discounts better under control, I think Japan is the way to go.

I think we should go for nicely organized frigate attack, no rush, but definetly a military play. Frigates by England supported by Japanese ships and ground forces.

So, I can do England, but we should definetly aim for a religion as Japan even with China and Russia being quicker about it.