[SPOILERS] Dhal gets ready to bungle another game (oh yeah some guy is dedlurking)

[Dhalphir]

TBS picked Mali.

1. Azza - Bismarck (EXP/IND) of XXXX
2. The Black Sword XXX (XXX/XXX) of Mali
3. BaII
4. dtay
5. Dhal
6. Dhal
7. dtay
8. BaII
9. The Black Sword
10. Azza

[Dhalphir]

So Mali gets wheel/mining, strong archer UU, and a strong economic building in the Mint.

Strong civ pick. I assume that TBS has a wheat or corn as his strong food resource and will go for Agriculture out of the gate, because you wouldn't pick a civ without any AH prereqs if you had pigs. His start will probably be similar to mine, except he'll be going Agri/BW and I will go AH/BW.

[Dhalphir]

Okay, BaII takes Lizzy and dtay takes Vicky.

That leaves Sury wide open for me. Question is - do I still want him?

My gut feeling says yes. Expansive is going to be awesome on a donut because your empire by necessity tends to be long, so I want to be able to have a lot of workers. Not having to worry as much about health is always nice, and Creative is going to make things much easier in early defense and also in dotmapping. With Lizzy and Vicky gone there aren't any other financial leaders that have a 1pt secondary trait, so to take a financial civ would require either revising my civ pick from Ethiopia to someone else, or accepting leaving a point on the table.

My choice still seems to be Sury II of Ethiopia, but last night I had a thought - What if I take Catherine of India?

Creative costs me the 2 points, India costs me the 3, and Imperialistic gives me cheap settlers instead of workers, which is still nice for a 0 point trait. It would make my opening a bit messy, because India doesn't start with agriculture or hunting, so I would have to research Hunting and then AH.

A quick sim shows that the result of doing that is that my worker finishes two turns before AH does. Is that a big problem? I don't know. Doesn't seem like a big enough deal to spend 3 points on Expansive for Sury when I could spend them on having Fast Workers.

[Commodore]

Have you considered Sury of Maya or Greece?

[Dhalphir]

I haven't.

Greece starts with Hunting, but not Mining, and I'd really like to get a fast bronze working to chop out the first settler.

Maya is a possible choice. They are in the same boat as India where they start without hunting or agriculture, and thus the first worker will have nothing to do for a couple turns. That said, having a resourceless spearman is a pretty appealing idea - would help to avoid horrible situations with chariots in the early game.

[Commodore]

I think ignoring the unique buildings might be problematic.

Please note, just trying to see if you're considering all your options. I'll never ever cast aspersions on India.

[Dhalphir]

so I guess that nails it down to three main picks

Sury of Ethiopia
Sury of Maya
Catherine of India

Surythiopia
Pros
-Expansive
-Creative
-Good unique unit for the midgame
-Hunting/Mining start for a nice tech path of AH->BW

Cons
-Underwhelming unique bulding that I probably won't even build as Creative
-UU does nothing until midgame

Sury Maya
Pros
-Expansive
-Creative
-Good early game UU for defense against chariots
-Nice unique building for midgame happiness management, with amazing synergy with Creative. 80 hammer building, double speed with creative, that gives 3 happiness? Yes fucking please

Cons
-Early game build doesn't line up nicely
-The benefit of the Holkan is totally nullified if copper or iron are easy to get and keep on this map

Catherine of India
-Creative
-Imperialistic is nice for cheap settlers
-Fast workers! And they never become obsolete

Cons
-Imperialistic isn't as nice as expansive
-Mysticism/Mining start isn't ideal for my gameplan
-Unique building doesn't appear until late in the game

Have I missed anything? Sound reasoning?

[Dhalphir]

I think the primary things we're weighing up here, really

Fast workers with a less impressive leader (Catherine of India)

vs

Optimised start with Hunting/mining and Sury (Sury of Ethiopia)

vs

Nice UU and UB with Sury (Sury of Maya)

[Dhalphir]

browsing the civ wiki has given me another idea

what about a combo with Persia?

Hannibal of Persia would be a strong trait. I would have to make a good effort at Stonehenge, or resign myself to chopping out monuments everywhere, but as a CHA leader they at least have some benefit besides expanding borders, and the free 2 happiness will be huge if happiness resources are scarce on the map.

[Dhalphir]

I'm starting to like that idea. CHA removes the necessity of hereditary rule, or at least reduces how much military police you need with the civic. Financial means that I won't fall behind BaII or dtay who both picked Financial civs. Immortals mean that I can absolutely wreck anybody who attacks me - defensive bonuses on chariots mean that you can more effectively maneuver tactically.