(April 8th, 2019, 16:19)RefSteel Wrote: Actually, a city 3W of the capital would have a trade connection for us: By the time we planted it, we'd have a coastal route between the two cities entirely within our borders. (Sailing is only needed for coastal trade routes when they pass outside of your culture, and our Creative capital borders will pop to third ring by T25.) Whether that makes it worth settling first will depend on scouting, of course.
Don't we start we only generate 3 culture bcs CRE only generates 1 culture for RtR. So we would pop by T34 though I think our city would prob still be founded by then though.
Also I think the biggest issue with researching Fishing tech is that it will delay Pottery which means later Graneries and whipping isn't that efficient until Graneries. A minor thing to keep in mind is that an early academy isn't super useful if we don't have mature cottages to work.
All the current/recent versions of RtR give +2 culture with Creative as far as I know, so no worries there. Borders should pop T25. (I can understand the confusion; the mod seems to change almost every game!)
I must be misunderstanding your Fishing concern: Fishing -> Wheel is the fastest route to Pottery. The only way Fishing First might delay Pottery would be if we had to tech Agriculture before Pottery anyway - e.g. if we need it for our second city (no way to know yet, of course) ... and even then, the delay would be one or two turns at most! Between the extra commerce from working the fish tile and the additional prereq bonus, early Fishing pretty much pays for itself by the time we get BW + Pottery.
I absolutely agree with your comment about the need for cottages if we're to get value from an early Academy - in fact, I'd say it is in no way a minor thing!
And I agree that Mysticism is very unfortunate with a Creative leader (or any leader, for that matter). I'd much rather have any other starting tech. If we do go with the Aztecs, then unless we delay Bronze, our Worker is actually going to be idle (or just moving into position) for ~5 turns between finishing our only bare-hill mine and BW coming in. (And this is equally true whether or not we tech Fishing and go WB first! The only way to avoid wasting these worker turns would be to delay BW for something like The Wheel, in which case we spend a lot of turns building roads.) Realistically that would also be true (in fact, more so, since the tech would take longer) with an Agriculture/Fishing start: We could then use the worker turns to farm a floodplain, but that would mostly be busywork since we'll be cottaging over the floodplains soonish anyway. If we got techs that were actually good for this start - Hunting/Mining, Hunting/Agri, Hunting/Wheel, Hunting/Fishing, Fishing/Mining, Mining/Wheel, or Mining/Agri - we'd be much better off of course ... and we'd probably have almost a 50% chance of getting such a civ if we reroll. The trouble is just that we'd have at least one chance in three of rolling something clearly worse than the 'tecs, potentially including horrors like Spain. Truthfully, we can probably make do with anything though.
Some examples of specific micro options for a Hunting/Myst start: (These have not been tested in a sandbox, but I trust my MentalSim[tm] to have the numbers right...)
1) Fishing + Workboat T7, Mining T14, Worker T16, Warrior T21, BW T29, Settler T30 at size 2 with 2 overflow and 6 food in the bin
2) Fishing + Workboat T7, Mining T14, Worker T16, Warrior T21, 2nd Warrior T25, BW T29, Settler T32 at size 3 with 6 overflow and 3 food in the bin
3) Mining T8, Worker T12, Warrior T18, BW T25, Settler T28 at size 2 with 1 chop, 18 overflow and 2 food in the bin
4) Mining T8, Worker T12, Warrior T17, 2nd Warrior T22, BW T26, Settler T30 at size 3 with 1 chop, 8 overflow and 0 food in the bin
5) Mining T8, Worker T12, Warrior T17, 2nd Warrior T22, BW T25, Settler T29 at size 2 with 1 chop and 1 whip, 14 overflow and 0 food in the bin, having already revolted to slavery
(April 9th, 2019, 03:34)RefSteel Wrote: I must be misunderstanding your Fishing concern: Fishing -> Wheel is the fastest route to Pottery. The only way Fishing First might delay Pottery would be if we had to tech Agriculture before Pottery anyway
Uh whoops forgot Fishing + Wheel gets us Pottery. Too use to going Agriculture->Wheel->Pottery.
For simming purposes how about we delay BW to get Pottery instead just because it gives our workers something to do.
So WB->Worker and the worker will pasture pigs and from there road to a city location 3W of our capital starting from the pigs. From there we give the 2nd city the pigs resource and have both cities pop out another worker. After that we can use our 3 workers to chop out some Granaries. I think this is the only way to really avoid wasting worker turns in the early game.
@Shallow_thought: Thanks for the support, I`ll see if we can recreate the success from the last game.
As I`m busy Monday nights it`s been almost a day since we got our second round choice. Aztecs. It definitely could have been worse.. and better. Hunting is of course very good for our start but Mysticism is going to slow down our opening somewhat if we keep the civ. I like the Sacrificial Altar a lot, it`s got the potential of being really strong. I concur that the UU is unimpressive to say the least but it`s all about the SA with the Aztecs. As have been pointed out, having a leader which is better when running many Caste specialists and a unique building that depends on being in Slavery is anti-synergic. It`s not a massive problem because we can easily "change gears" so to say, swapping between Caste and Slavery with well timed Golden Ages.
Going Fishing first is not something that crossed my mind and looks like a decent way of getting the most out of our start. Having a Worker around doing pretty much nothing is not what we want and as soon as we connect the Fish it`s going to net us some commerce. Going Workboat - Worker-grow to size 2 - Settler will get us an early second city (which is a good investment). I slightly prefer that to growing to size 3 because we have exactly two strong tiles in our bfc assuming that we settle in place.
On tech path, we have to make a decision on whether to pursue Bronze Working asap after Fishing is in or go for e.g Pottery first. I haven`t looked into the numbers yet but we can put the decision off for a while.
I`m leaning keep Aztecs but need a few hours to make the final decision. We could luck into something ridiculous, like Russia, but we can`t reroll again if we get unlucky.
(April 8th, 2019, 16:19)RefSteel Wrote: Actually, a city 3W of the capital would have a trade connection for us:
I stand corrected. Trade routes work in mysterious ways and this would obviously make building our second city in range of the Pigs a better proposition.
(April 8th, 2019, 17:56)BaII Wrote: A minor thing to keep in mind is that an early academy isn't super useful if we don't have mature cottages to work.
True. We should get our cottages down as early as possible. We need quite a few Workers for that (and Pottery of course). We`ll prioritize building an economy from an early stage.
While we're waiting I think I might have found a way to go BW before Pottery without "wasting" worker turns.
(April 9th, 2019, 03:34)RefSteel Wrote: 1) Fishing + Workboat T7, Mining T14, Worker T16, Warrior T21, BW T29, Settler T30 at size 2 with 2 overflow and 6 food in the bin
For this plan instead of going worker right after improving the Fish we can build a warrior first while growing to size 2 and then start up on a worker. I'm not sure how good this is because I think it will delay the settler by a good amount of turns because there is a delay in pasturing the pigs. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be wasting worker turns but I'm not sure if it's worth it given that our worker will come out so late.
(April 11th, 2019, 01:26)Charriu Wrote: All players have decided. There will not be a third round as every player for round 3 only got a civ. Here is the summary:
Quote:Elkad: Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of Germany
JR4: Pericles (CRE/PHI) of the Aztec
wetbandit: Napoleon (CHA/ORG) of the Vikings
Superdeath: Peter (EXP/PHI) of France
Donovan Zoi: Catherine (CRE/IMP) of Zululand
BGN/Mr. Cairo: Julius Caesar (IMP/ORG) of Greece
Cornflakes: Rameses (IND/SPI) of the Inca
The rng has spoken and that is a nasty surprise indeed.
I thought that we agreed to ban Agg/Pro AND Zulu/Inca but apparently not. It`s too late to change anything at this point of course but we may well find ourselves bordering Zulu with strong starting traits yet again. Donovan`s combo is quite scary but he needs to make something happen in the early/mid game if he wants to win this game.
Hilariously, Mr.Cairo got the very same leader as in PB 42 again. You can`t really go wrong with Julius Caesar of Greece. Elkad got Germany which likely has the best starting techs and the most boring UU in the game. Unsurprisingly Org is quite popular with these bans (and higher difficulty) but there is a wide variety of leaders around. Superdeath got a peaceful leader. Let`s see if he can put Phi to good use. I`m certainly surprised with that. France is a very strong civ at least. Also, Cornflakes has the only Ind leader paired with Spi. He surely will target Pyramids. Wetbandit is playing a Napoleon of the Vikings. Interesting. I think we have a middle of the pack combo.
(April 10th, 2019, 12:49)BaII Wrote: While we're waiting I think I might have found a way to go BW before Pottery without "wasting" worker turns.
(April 9th, 2019, 03:34)RefSteel Wrote: 1) Fishing + Workboat T7, Mining T14, Worker T16, Warrior T21, BW T29, Settler T30 at size 2 with 2 overflow and 6 food in the bin
For this plan instead of going worker right after improving the Fish we can build a warrior first while growing to size 2 and then start up on a worker. I'm not sure how good this is because I think it will delay the settler by a good amount of turns because there is a delay in pasturing the pigs. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be wasting worker turns but I'm not sure if it's worth it given that our worker will come out so late.
Hmm, we need to think carefully about the opening here. Losing Worker turns in the early game is not very appealing and we need to decide on Fishing first or Mining - Bronze Working. I`ll have some time tomorrow to sim out the start. As long as we don`t delay the first Settler for too long Warrior - Worker could be an option. But improving the Pigs is one of our key goals, to get the snowball rolling asap.
Too use to going Agriculture->Wheel->Pottery.
Donovan`s combo is quite scary but he needs to make something happen in the early/mid game if he wants to win this game.