[SPOILERS - PBEM29] spacetyrantxenu - Mao of Babylon

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

T90

I may not have mentioned this to you, Number One, but I talked to Dazed last night about the second snipe city. He made some fair points and I think we should consider settling on the rice instead of on the gems hill. The main points were that the city center will be +3 food on the rice, we won't waste an otherwise great gems tile, the loss of settling on the hill is somewhat mitigated by there being no way Slowcheetah can attack without attacking across a river, and it won't put so much pressure on Dazed's city, which would surely lead to strife eventually. Plus, I can guarantee he is going to build the Globe in that city with so many food sources, so best not to be 2 tiles from someone's Globe. We'll get crushed. What do you think about that? Refresher photo from last turn for the purpose of this discussion:

I'll post my chat with Dazed from last night when I get it formatted.

My first thought is of course he doesn't want us settling right up on his uber-draft camp city. Second: settling on the rice is a much weaker defensive position. Even if the hill position does not get across the river bonus on defense, the rice will not get defensive bonus at all vs. attacks from Dazed, whereas Dazed would be able to position attacking forces on the hill for +25% against us attacking out with siege, etc. Don't think one-dimensionally on who we could be fighting. Also, the ability to (and value of being able to) two-move his city should be contemplated. Third, to me, in this forward location, food is much more valuable than commerce. We could possibly take 3 food resources here if we get his pigs. I see no reason not to do so. We can also play zone defense, if needed. I can see us putting our Globe in the original snipe location founded T87, so units should be nearby when we get to drafting.

Found the chat from last night:

Mao: are you there?
need some input from you, i'm thinking about sniping a spot from slowcheetah because he's being slow about settling it. i want to settle on top of the gems 3W, 1S of Function. i know that's very close to your city but you planted that city in the middle of everything down there -- a very nice draft camp for you I think.
mostly i want the site for its defensive position. it's on a hill and is across a river from slowcheetah
he drawback for you is that my city's BFC would overlap yours considerably, but it would not jeopardize any of your resource tiles
you would lose a grass hill and grasslands tile (once jungle is cleared off them)
but it would create a good defensive front for me against slowcheetha

Dazedroyalty: do you have a screen shot you could send with teh spot marked on it?
that would help

Mao: yeah

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44346970/RB/...-GemsSteal.JPG

Dazedroyalty: oh that's pretty

Mao: and i just realized it does overlap with one of your pigs
but your culture will control it
especially after you build your globe!

Dazedroyalty: honestly, i'd like it better if you settled on the rice

Mao: yeah but that's flat land

Dazedroyalty: true but he has to attack accross a river

Mao: you really only lose the hill and grass tile, other than having me peeking over your picket fence

Dazedroyalty: which is basically the same as being on a hill

Mao: i can't tell, does the river go east of the rice tile?

Dazedroyalty: i believe so
but it wouldn't matter
cuz you can't attack from a mountain

Mao: right. that's the point. so on the hill it woudl be +25% for the hill and +50% from the river

Dazedroyalty: river is 45

Mao: so he can only attack across the river unless he wants to step onto the rice

Dazedroyalty: *25
not 50

Mao: oops
oooo, amphibious penalty is 50%
there's a reason i'm going to lose this game, i miss a lot of small things like that

Dazedroyalty: i will also point out that settling on rice will give you +1 food in the city center
settling on gems makes them a complete waste

Mao: wet rice is only +4 right?
when farmed?

Dazedroyalty: gems are a much better tile than rice
no they are plus 5

Mao: so that isn't a huge loss...i was mostly interested in this site for its defensive value
oh
so we do lose a bit on food, not that it matters with this city
there's a lot of grass to farm. i dn't think i'd cottage a front city too much

Dazedroyalty: the pigs will be plenty of food to grow cottages

Mao: you think that'd be safe?

Dazedroyalty: plus teh rice in the city center

Mao: pillage fodder

Dazedroyalty: i mean, until you get windmills and stuff
you don't have a choice
not a lot you can do

Mao: farms everywhere nd whip it like crazy. there's a lot of happiness on this map

Dazedroyalty: i wouldn't cottage the south side of the mointain

Mao: no that would be silly.

Dazedroyalty: i'd cottage the back
farm the front
but i still prefer the rice tile
and i will tell you sian is trying to do the same thing to me
so i'll give you the same line
militarily, it's just a not good thing

Mao: so on the rice tile it would be +25% defense, on the hill +50%?

Dazedroyalty: yes that's correct

Mao: keep in mind i'm your friend and sian is the boogeyman

Dazedroyalty: that's true
but someday, things might change and you decide to double move me with knights

Mao: but i agree that you want your city to be defensible, even if you did plant it in the middle of all those resources. but since they aren't my resources i don't care about that.
and therefore i congratulate you on sniping my opponents.

Dazedroyalty: i settled there because I can effectively defend 3 cities with one set of units

Mao: positioned between the three cities?

Dazedroyalty: essentially but i'd prefer not to disclose all our defense plans

Mao: i understand zone defense, it's no biggie

Dazed talking about growing cottages in this conflict-zone city is absurd. And, if Sian is doing the same to him on the other side, our position is that much stronger. He can't defend both spots from poaching. Also, I didn't hear Dazed ask for input on where he should place his city. He got there first, now he has to be able to defend it. And, he just has a warrior, for now.

I suggest we go straight in, found, immediately spread our religion to start culture, and grow/whip some walls in ASAP. We can borrow garrisons from our other poaching spot until we can get them replaced. Once we get entrenched on that hill, it will take a determined effort to do anything about our city, and I hope he'll recognize that an all-out conflict just isn't worth it. Especially when we'll have maces. Cats aren't far away either.

Apparently Boldly and I disagree about where to settle the gems city. I have a feeling this will be decided by whoever plays the turn when the settler is in position. If relations worsen with Dazed I blame you and your damn insubordination, Number One!

I just think that since we have been dealt protective as a trait, we need to use it to our advantage where we can. Fortification on a hill in a disputed area would certainly factor in, in my opinion. Having to bring 6 attackers where 4 would normally be needed, for example, could dissuade Dazed from having the stomach to attack. I just hope Krill isn't paying attention.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Krill doesn't play the turns and apparently only rarely sees the save, from what I understand (maybe that was from a chat with Dazed a long time ago). And honestly if Dazed goes on vacation we're boned if Krill plays the turns anyway because he'll find some flaw in our troop alignments and exploit it if he wants to so there's no real reason to plan for that event. We'll just assume Dazed is our opponent for the purposes of planning since we have a chance of winning in that scenario. Keep good garrisons inside cities, leave available units in zones between cities, and pay attention to the power graphs. Outside of diplomacy that's all we can do to maintain a state of readiness.

But as usual I'm being a bit one dimensional in my thinking, I was thinking short term vs. Slowcheetah and not longer term vs. both of them. Hill location is certainly better for defense. I'll look the other way as you settle it, but don't do it until you have a good enough garrison to hold it and enough workers to get the rice quickly improved. Plan at this city will have to be settle city, cram it with units, chop/farm rice, grow to 2, whip city walls, then worry about a granary. A Hindu ready on the turn the city settles would be great so we can whip overflow onto the granary and get the border pop started sooner.

I'm not sure how to defend the jungle/hill east of the city -- build a fort and stack it with bows (they'll get their CG bonus in a fort, right?), or just ignore that tile and let Dazed take it if he moves a stack in to attack us and we'll concentrate all of our units inside the city? We would want to cut the jungle off the grass tile so that he wouldn't get terrain defense there, but that would also open our city directly to being attacked on the turn of a war declaration by two-movers. Then again, sufficient numbers of PRO longbows + pikes would make that expensive. And maybe this is a case where building a castle isn't a total waste of time since it would be so cheap for us (we have stone and PRO gets a discount on walls AND castles, right?).

What else am I missing? If we go ahead with this plan it may require us to tech Construction before we run at the Great Library. Deviating for that long will almost certainly allow someone else to get it (I'm sure Slowcheetah would love to have it).

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I think GL is going to be a miss for us--too many other pressing needs (machinery for maces, calendar for resources, Monarchy + feudalism for LBs, and I'd like construction for cats). And, honestly, I'd rather have an awesome city and let Kitties have the Library if I had a choice, so I think we have other priorities atm. We are fairly far-flung with our cities, and very thin on troops. I think that will be my goal for now, especially in cities that do not yet have a religion (and thus no OR +25% bonus on improvements).

[spacetyrantxenu]

That works for me, especially since you're driving this bus for now. Also, I think we should scrap any idea of taking Slowwalk's spice city. It seems like an unnecessary irritation for not much gain. If we're already spread thin I see no reason to exacerbate the problem.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Dazed doesn't like our proposed gems site. He asked me about it, not that I sought out this conversation.

Dazedroyalty: I was reviewing our diplo discussion and I don't actually see a final agreement. You implied that settling on the rice would be fine, but that's it. What are you thinking?

Mao: considering it's friday and boldly is playing turns over the weekend, i told him my opinion was that rice was OK, but he likes the hill better.
insubordination is strong with him, but i can't really fire him since i'm not paying him anything.

Dazedroyalty: i understand
but that's not really cool
i mean, i get that happened with sian
but it seems like a cheap diplo trick here
if you're gonna settle the hill, just tell me and let's deal with that

Mao: so that it doesn't seem like i'm trying to smear it on thinly here, his point that i hadn't considered is that even though we're friendly toward you right now and more aggressively postured against slowcheetah, he pointed out to me that if we settle the rice we would have a good defensive border against slowcheetah but would be exposed to attack from your side, being on flat ground with no river crossing. that does present difficulty for me.
so if our foreign policy changes (or if yours does) and we find ourselves in an unfortunate conflict, our rice settlement would be first against the wall.

Dazedroyalty: true but you gain more by being further awy
from a war with me, being in range of a double move is worse
and i'll have cultural control for a long time if not the whole game
i don't think the "defending against dazed" argument makes sense

Mao: you could hit the rice tile with 2 movers just the same
so in an effort to defend against you settling on the hill makes more sense

Dazedroyalty: let me put it to you this way, that hill is a hostile settlement in my mind
my borders haven't popped but that's settling on my BFC

Mao: you did plant a very forward city in the middle of the map. with a single warrior garrison. but i'm not looking to move your city and think it was a nice thing for you to snipe rsources from slowwalk and sian. but the location did push toward what would otherwise have been some of my land. the two (usable) tiles in question, the jungled hill and grass are across the centerline. although we have no settling agreement you can't be too disturbed that i would want those in my first ring.

Dazedroyalty: ok
hold on

Mao: this city will be loaded with defensive units. if you think we're going to attack with bows and longbows that would be silly of me.

Dazedroyalty: i'm really confused by a prevelant attitude I've encountered in this game
i think it's because this map is so closely mirrored that it could be divided into "sections"
BUT there is no land that belongs to anyone in the jungle except what you settle
that's a very new player way of thinking about land

Mao: well doesn't that kind of make my argument then? if you don't have a city there i could take the spot. but that did get us into trouble in the tundra before.
well...i am a new player :P
i know it looks like we're on opposite ends of the same problem we had in the tundra, but to me it's the same concern. in both cases the point of conflict came down to having a border i could defend.

Dazedroyalty: but that's the same thing for me
i don't want to be double moved
so if you found there and can defend it, i obviously can't stop you
but if you think that one warrior is all i have, i'm sorry to say you're wrong
and this time i'm not just bluffing

Mao: that's all you had in the city when i scouted with the axe. i don't doubt you have a stack playing zone defense.

Dazedroyalty: [COLOR="Yellow"]i have two immortals and two bows
and if you move onto that hill
you better be able to stop them[/COLOR]

Mao: i'm not looking to invade you or go to war with anyone who isn't ranked #1 or #2 in this game, so as long as we're working together there's nothing to fear on either side i would think.
overtaking sian and slowcheetah is a long term project, at least that's how i view it

Dazedroyalty: but you claim you're settling the hill to defend against me
but then saying you don't want war
so it's not consistent
you're telling me not to worry

Mao: i need you as an ally if i'm going to have any way to do that. i think you'd prefer to have me as an ally as well. i know you're coming in at #2 in score for now, but your economic status says you aren't really the #2 threat right now. so we should still be working together.
it is consistent because i can't put myself in a situation where i won't be able to defend against you in 100 turns if it turns out that you're gunning for me
i can't move that city to a better defensive spot once i've settled it on flat ground

Dazedroyalty: true
but in 100 turns

Mao: i'm settling the hill right now to steal land from slowcheetah. my only other possible location is in a much weaker defensive position

Dazedroyalty: but to be clear
i think that hill is an agressive plant to me
and i'm not okay with it
so if you want to stay working together,
that's not the way to do it

Mao: would you feel better if we both instituted an agreement to not launch an attack from those two cities?

Dazedroyalty: no, i'd prefer that to be not posisble

Mao: we have a longer front than that and could invade from elsewhere if you ever wanted war
this is a gentlemen's game at RB and if you made that agreement with me i would not break it. so you'd lose no security about being doublemoved.

Dazedroyalty: but i'm not willing to sign a game long agreement with ANYone (in this case you) to never attack

Mao: from that one city? i could launch an attack from herman cain almost as easily. build a few roads and send troops.

Dazedroyalty: i really gotta go

Mao: ok

Dazedroyalty: sorry
chat later

Mao: if you want to talk it over with boldly feel free
i'll be back sunday night

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Dazed doesn't like our proposed gems site. He asked me about it, not that I sought out this conversation.

Spoilered for length.

I'm not sure I like Dazed's pillow talk here. I'll take him at his word on the units because I have no reason to believe he doesn't have them there, but it wouldn't take much effort to get a couple spears and bows down there to the hill. I won't provoke a full on war if I can help it, not over a 1 tile placement, but I'm going to stand my ground. If he doesn't like my city, he can attempt to remove it, but it will cost him plenty to do so. He's spammed settlers out like crazy. Has he done the same with military? Is his economy in any shape for a full out conflict? I doubt it. Our economy is sound for the time being. The rate he has spammed cities will show on his economy if he wants to fight. I think we can plant as we see fit and dare him to stop it. Brinskmanship ftw!

When I get the save I'll see what other ways I can devise to put some pain into Dazed, should the need arise. We do have a large front area to defend, as does he, but most of what he can attack over land is defensible either by a river crossing (our jungle border city, Herman Cain?) or a hills location (Huntsman).

Stay tuned...

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

T 91 -

Ron Paul will build some military for our contested jungle location with Dazed, the settler will now come out of Rick Perry. I will whip a spear from Ron Paul T92, overflow for another spear T93, and overflow for an axe or bow (probably bow) on T94. I can 2pop the settler out of rick on T92 or let it slow build on T93, probably opting for this. Delaying the city like this will allow me to hook up roads to get the stone bonus in the city and a missionary in place to settle once I found, as well as having sufficient garrison in place to defend whatever Dazed wants to do. Hopefully he won't be able to pop borders before this time, and I'm guessing he can't.

He can look at this as hostility or as Realpolitik, whichever he prefers. I'd still like to be friends, but just slapping a city down and dictating borders does not work for me, especially with a warrior garrison. If he wants to dictate terms, he'll need to have a military and be willing to use it. Let's see how this plan goes.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

T92

Turn played. Mostly I continued with the plan I laid out last turn.

Diplo with Dazed:

Hey,

Just wanted to let you know that I closed borders in game. This is not because I do not want to work together but 1) your refusal to not settle DIRECTLY on my border combined with 2) sending a chariot scouting into my territory after I specifically asked and was told he was on his way home are both considered unfriendly actions. I will happily reopen borders next turn with a no scouting arrangement. I'd also like to continue to negotiate that settlement before it is too late.

Logically yours,
Dazed

My reply:

Dazed--

I'll give the good news first: your second point is very likely correct, Xenu would have to say for certain. I did not know of your no-scouting agreement. If Xenu even mentioned it, it has been a long time. This may ring hollow, given our disagreement over point 1, but it is true. I mentioned to Xenu before he went out of town that I would benefit from a diplo spreadsheet of some sorts, or just a definitive list of our current agreements/obligations. Sorry to put you under the bus, teammate, but this one's on you.

As for the my proposed city site, this unfortunately is going to stand as is. I'm taking a longterm view of the defensive positioning, and do not see the grass tile being superior. I may be proven wrong on this eventually, but for now I intend to settle the hill and garrison it strongly enough to hold. I read "before it is too late" a bit ominiously, and hope it does not imply more than you mean, but be certain that we will protect our interests, should that be necessary.

I did not propose reopening borders. I am happy with the no scouting agreement, and apologize sincerely for the breach of the previous agreement. I am willing to allow you to scout in a reciprocal fashion in some of the disputed areas that I mistakenly scouted (near our Jon Huntsman and island wines city, for example) in reparation. However, once this is done, I would not recommend to Xenu that we reopen borders at this time, due to trade imbalance concerns. I hope you will understand.

I look forward to continued cooperation with you, and foresee many opportunities of mutual advancement for our teams in both the immediate and distant future. I hope we can settle our differences vis a vis my proposed settlement reasonably.


Best,

Boldly

Here are the trade numbers from last turn and this turn, after Dazed closed borders:

T 92 export/import

us +6
dazed +16

T91

us -6
Dazed 22

As long as I'm uncertain of his intentions, I will not give Dazed any advantages. This turn, completed MC, overflow + research from this turn gets us very close to machinery, which will complete next turn at low slider percentage. I'll build a few maces for Dazed to stare at. Proposed research monarchy to Feudalism. Just in case.

[spacetyrantxenu]

T93 - I opened the save and a trade proposal from Dazed appeared, offering open borders straight up. I'll pass for now. As long as the international community decides not to take collective action against Sian, we don't need OBs with everyone to fill out our trade routes. I would probably accept a deal with Dazed that opened borders with him if he closed borders with Sian, and then try to work something out with Slowcheetah, too. Here's the trade offer and city count. Dazed is at 17 cities now. (Sian has 16, I don't remember Slowcheetah's total).

Here's a quick recap of events from the last few turns:

Sian popped a Prophet and spent him on a shrine, so his GNP should see an upward tick as a result of the free shrine commerce.

A lot of worker movements, Hindu spread to Bachmann (where Moai finally finishes this turn. Forge next, then library). We're building a settler at Mitt Romney, where is that going? I see a chop going in next turn at Gary Johnson for its settler (to spice city), when that comes in I'll probably whip the settler.

As I ended turn we finished the Moai, Newt finished a forge, spear in Ron Paul, and settler (for Dazed jungle) finished in Rick Perry. Even though the settler was going to finish this turn anyway I went ahead and whipped Rick Perry to give him a head start on his forge. 23 overflow starting into it this turn. Swap tiles next turn when it regrows to halt growth working all the mines and in a few turns we can whip the forge too.

Herman Cain could have triple whipped the courthouse this turn but I decided to wait until next turn to do that. It will still cost 3 pop but the city grows next turn so it will regrow to size 4 anyway.

Dazed is going to found a city on his turn right on our border by Jon Huntsman. I assume the intent is to steal our deer, whatever. That's another throw away city for Dazed. I wonder if he ever plans to grow his economy? All that city will do is borrow the fish and wheat from Quadratic, borrow the horse and deer from TI-83 Plus, and steal my deer / crowd my border. So he gets a city that is useful whenever the other two cities it borders don't need their best tiles. I guess he can use that to grow and whip, but if he just crams this city with culture to 2v1 Jon Huntsman I'm going to get pissed off and eventually burn this city. I don't care if Dazed throws down cities on every tile of the map but right on my borders is irritating when it isn't necessary. (And this isn't the same thing we're doing to him in the jungle because our move there is to close an open front. This tundra front is already closed so this is just an aggravation). In any event, if he does push culture here and ends up taking my silver tile as a result, one of these cities will burn for it to restore the balance. Right now the silver tile is at 89%/10% favoring us (rounding error?), but with two cities pressuring a tile in the third ring I'm sure it's possible to overcome second ring culture eventually. Dazed has the same cultural buildings in TI-86 Plus that I have in Jon Huntsman (library + monument), so if he stuffs the new city we'll see how long it takes to flip the tile.

Speaking of Jon Huntsman, we should probably go ahead and chop the forest under Slowcheetah's deer while it's still in our culture. Stop farm/chopping where we are, put a road there, then move NW with the worker and chop the deer forest. We can say it's for defensive purposes, not that Slowcheetah ever engages diplomatically anyway. Probably wait until the forge is finished before committing the chops, though. Also if we get a Hindu up here by then that would be nice to get +50% on each chop into the courthouse (all 3 chops with the forge and Hinduism in place would more than finish the courthouse from scratch).

End of turn demographics and graphs:

F1:

[spacetyrantxenu]

Yawn, diplo. Any chance we can tech cannons soon and make all this unnecessary?

Dazedroyalty: i was wondering why you turned down OB

me: basically i'll open borders with you if you'll close with sian. we have full trade routes right now so don't stand to gain all that much, but if we can get the international blockade going again we would obviously prefer to trade with you over sian

Dazedroyalty: wow. i gotta say, we're not on a good foot for working together
1) you insist on settling on me
2) Boldly disregards stated plan
3) don't want to OB

me: i do want OBs. but i'm coming from a place where i don't need them with everyone. do you need them with sian and me to fill out your routes with foreign routes?
i think the part of the plan boldly disregarded was teh scouting part that i failed to tell him about. he's being honest about that. i don't have a game spreadsheet and failed to post that in thread
i think he offered to make up for that by letting you scout as much of us as we did of you, once we reopen borders
which is basically our tundra city and on an island?

Dazedroyalty: i'm not worried about the scouting except what it says in conjunction with other actions
I can't close OB w/ Sian because I'm getting GPT from him
I need every penny i can get
i'm in last place in tech
score is meaningless
also, if you won't OB with me, then I have no reason not to declare war just to prevent you from settling on that site.
so really, you're making it easy for me to not want to work together

me: i could say the same about the settlement you're about to place in the tundra, casus belli being that your 2 cities would eventually endanger my silver. but let's not be hasty.
your game plan is to build as many cities as the map supports, so i'm not going to fuss about the tundra spot (as long as i keep control of my silver, that is...do try not to push culture up there. you should be at +4 in TI-86, i would think a library in the new city wouldn't overtax my culture requirements in jon huntsman to keep the silver on my side of the border)

Dazedroyalty: i have no interest in your silver

me: i can't afford to give you gpt to close borders with sian. i'd suggest slowing expansion and building courthouses to revive your economy

Dazedroyalty: i'm not asking you to give me GPT

me: right, i know you don't need teh sliver but it's already on the border and 2 cities pressing it provides the opportunity for a flip eventually

Dazedroyalty: i'm saying, you're helping me, which makes it illogical to allow you to settle up on me

me: i know you're not asking me to gift gpt, but closing borders with sian does help us both.

Dazedroyalty: no, it doesn't help me, becuase i need to get as much GNP as i can to get some critical techs ASAP

me: if slowcheetah would build more cities i'm sure you wouldn't need sian's routes. and he's only giving you 3 or 4 gpt right?
can you build wealth?

Dazedroyalty: the relative help is lower than the immediate help
i appreciate your suggestions on my economy. krill and i have talked extensively about it and i'm not worried abotu my recovery plan
what I am worried about is that you're actions towards my nation in game are consistently one sided

me: how so?

Dazedroyalty: and given that you were willing to go to war to prevent my aggressive plant, I'm willing to do the same

me: ?

Dazedroyalty: sorry, i should have said consistently over the last 5 turns

me: when did i say i was going to war?

Dazedroyalty: you did already
when you razed my city

me: about the new tundra city or something else?

Dazedroyalty: so you thought that was justifiable

me: oh, that. well...you realized that was a reach. i think you did that to test us anyway

Dazedroyalty: but me being wary of you settling even CLOSER than i did to you should be fine?
that doesn't make sense

me: you forget where on the map this occured. your tundra city was 4 tiles to my capital. the sites in the jungle are out in god's country.

Dazedroyalty: that's not true
it was more than 4 tiles from your capital

me: then what, 5 tiles? it was one or the other

Dazedroyalty: no that's not true either
look at the game
it's 6 to where YOU founded
and i was one further

me: i have the PB loaded now..hold on let me look

Dazedroyalty: point being, you didn't like my placement
so you felt justified in destroying it
I will feel equally justified if you settle on my border
it was 4 tiles from your second city
Mitt
so you're settling CLOSER to my city than I did yours
so either accept that you're settling too close and are gonna say "stop me if you can"
or don't settl eit

me: oh, it was 4 from my second city
doh you just said that

Dazedroyalty: and you're settlement poses a GREATER threat to me than mine did to you, from a military standpoint

me: you can hardly call your jungle city on the edge of the world as relevant as me threatening your second city
if i settled 4 tiles from quadratic you would slap me down too
and rightly so

Dazedroyalty: every city of mind is valuable

in fact quadratic is a worse city than my new one will be

me: yes. but periphery cities aren't as necessary to defend as core cities. no matter if this new site is uber vs what quadratic produces, there is an inherent risk in settling any city far from your core. that's what the land grab is all about isn't it? now, we don't just go around grabbing land everywhere there's an open tile because that pisses people off. but where else can you say (objectively!) i can settle on my southern front next to you and slowcheetah that will protect my border as well as on that hill? on the rice we've discussed, it is wide open to attack from you. you can attack with two movers directly from your culture onto a city on flat land. we cannot protect that. on a hill we have a chance. is it inconvenient? yes. but if you are determined to view the plant as offensive instead of defensive, i don't know how else to convey that it is inherently not an offensive plant except to offer you the same deal i previously offered, which you rejected (that we'd agree to not launch an offensive against each other from that tight border).

Dazedroyalty: i understand your point
do you understand mine though?

me: your point is that i am settling aggresively onto your future globe city by settling at the minimum distance. does that summarize the core of the grievance?

Dazedroyalty: on the city, yes
but bigger picture
you won't open borders either

me: no, i said i would open borders.

Dazedroyalty: so from my perspective, i don't see the benefit of working with you right now

me: all i need is for you to close borders with sian. if we're determined to work together we need to boycott him.

Dazedroyalty: boycotting him doesn't help me NOW tho

me: last i checked he had 37 trade routes (probably more now)

Dazedroyalty: it helps you now

me: he needs OBs with everyone to fill them with foreign routes

Dazedroyalty: i need OBs with everyone to fill mine too

me: you're going to lose what, the 3gpt deal you have with him?

Dazedroyalty: well, maybe you and Sian together since Catwalk is the lowest
but you and slowcheetah aren't enough

me: you shouldn't be very short
you had 17 cities when i played, sian had 16. how many does slowcheetah have?

Dazedroyalty: 12 or 13

me: i forgot to count before ending turn
ok

Dazedroyalty: and i have one more city next turn
which means i need 36 cities

me: slowcheetah has (i think) only two inland cities, not that that matters. but i think he has 13 bc they've built one fairly recently
but call it 12 anyway
that's 24 routes. i have...13 cities, so 26 routes. you have the possibility of 50 routes for your 18 cities. that's 36 routes for you...now i'm sure slowwalk and i will spend some of our routes on each other so you wn't get all 50 routes for the 36 you need, but it will be pretty close
then again, take that with a grain of salt, when i last did OB and TR analysis in my thread, i forgot how many TRs sian got for the GLH. doh.

Dazedroyalty: here's the deal tho
sian has aggression on his mind in the near future. i'm gonna stay OB with him if for no other reason that to keep him focused on the kitties
i can't draw any attention right now
i need a few turns to strengthen my base

me: well good, i hope they tear each other to pieces
but i don't think you need OBs to accomplish that. why would he attack you anyway? his past grievances are against slowwalk
and surely you won't be penalized any more than the rest of us for closing borders. is he going to declare on all his rivals if they close borders? i hope he does.
i imagine he wouldn't enjoy the ensuing 3 way partition.

Dazedroyalty: in theory that sounds true
but i don't think it works that way in practice
BOTH of us are banking on "grievances"
but if he turns knights lose on either of us, we lose

me: well no. since i don't share a land border i'd be the odd man out. i'd probably just have to eat his islands

Dazedroyalty: right now
later we'll be fine

me: perhaps you should tech to engineering, that should throw cold water on a knight rush
Dazedroyalty: that'd still take time
and i do have a plan for defense
but that's not the point
i want to keep all his focus on slowcheetah
so i will not close borders with him now
even though I know it's technically helping him more
but it's still helping me more than OB with you
and it's got other intangible effects

me: well if you won't close borders with him, i hardly have a bargaining chip with you to get you to close with him. i don't need trade routes with everyone, just 2/3
such as?

Dazedroyalty: i just described them

me: redirecting attention? hardly.

Dazedroyalty: that's your opinion
but if he sees me as a way to fuel his economy without war, he'll stay at peace

me: he has OBs with everyone. that doesn't keep him from fighting whoever he wants.
he's trading with slowcheetah too. against whom theoretically he'd be directing an attack.
anyone he declares on removes a set of trade routes.

Dazedroyalty: true

me: unless we already weren't trading with him....

Dazedroyalty: but if he has 0 TRs he might have cause to rethink why he's going to war
because we're all working against him
whereas right now, we're all working "with" him
so he's focused on his issues with kitties

me: and we're all working with him in the prime of the Lighthouse's effect.
which is a mistake.

Dazedroyalty: economically yes, but if he kills us with knights, that's a moot point

me: if you stop building settlers and start building spears --> pikes he can't kill you with knights.
if you had fewer cities to defend you'd be safer.
you've really overexpanded. i know you're trying to catch all the pokemon/land tiles, but there is a downside to that, and your fears vs. sian kind of prove the difficulty of defending it all and researching fast enough to get modern weapons.

Dazedroyalty: i'm done expanding actually after next turn
and given the game i inherited and my traits, my only hope was to leverage the land race

me: if you can convert that population into GNP quickly and pull yourself out of GNP hell in time do make a run at sian, you'll have done good work. but your squiggly blue line on the GNP graph looks lonely
*to make a run

Dazedroyalty: haha. it is true
i think you'll see some major changes in the next ten turns

me: i hope some of them include closing borders with sian!!!
maybe you can leverage your IMP trait by selling settlers to slowcheetah at exorbitant prices. that will help GNP
(and then you can follow the settlers with, oh, HAs as he settles....)

Dazedroyalty: haha
we seem to be at an impasse, tbh, tho
you are firm in your convictions and so am i

me: what can i do to get you to close borders with sian and open with me instead?
short of paying money out of my own pocket.

Dazedroyalty: you can not settle that hill and spread your religion in Function
and get slowcheetah to close the same turn

me: we could try a protection racket. you and i propose an offer to sian that he gifts you the difference in the commerce you'll lose by closing with him and opening with me, and in return we promise not to jointly immediately declare war on him.
i don't think he wants to see macemen running across his land.

Dazedroyalty: yeah, i'm not interested in that deal. it's hard to go for when you're bluffing, which i would be

me: well build an army so he doesn't know you're bluffing
you need to garrison some of those new cities anyway

Dazedroyalty: i am building units

me: then buld MOAR

Dazedroyalty: but i can't build units and recover financially at once
Civ is competing direction
*directions
i am focusing on economy now
war is just a distraction atm

me: it is indeed, and you kind of stepped off the cliff grabbing land.

Dazedroyalty: nope
i focused
got all the land i needed
and now i'm changing focus

me: lol. are you sure you don't work in marketing?

Dazedroyalty: well college admissions is like marketting to high schoolers

me: you're doing it wrong. you should focus on writing the best rejection letter you possibly can. rather than focusing on how many you let in, revel in how many dreams you dash when you turn them away.
if mao let us having colleges that's how he'd do it.
*have
(you can see we need the education)

Dazedroyalty: haha. well mao would make a terrible provost
:P

me: no, our budget would be flawless and balanced every year.
$0.00, balances to the penny!
educational outcomes are for the weak. and the education minded.
as for the religion, you're bound to get a free spread eventually. with no prospects for building a shrine (until maybe i can buld cathedrals i guess), we won't be able to monetize the religion at all.

Dazedroyalty: i don't need a free spread
i need religion in that city

me: need i say that's mao's only reason for allowing it?

Dazedroyalty: or Sian will out culture me

me: which one is function?

Dazedroyalty: the one you're trying to settle up on
which sian also settled up on

me: you don't have a second city to the east?

Dazedroyalty: tho not as badly as you

me: to 2v1 his city?

Dazedroyalty: not the way he settled

me: well you should remove the offending city.
i'd be willing to help you with that.

Dazedroyalty: sigh.

me: call it a team building exercise. better than a ropes course or a trust fall.

Dazedroyalty: no war in the near future for me
unless we can't come to an agreement, then i'd be willing to declare war just to force you kill my units to settle

me: does he have level 2 borders there?
lol
you can't afford a war so you'll declare war on me?

Dazedroyalty: well i wouldn't fight you
i'd just sit units on the hill

me: you read the part above where i said i can build maces, right?

Dazedroyalty: even maces won't get odds on a jungle hill
you'll lose units

me: i can throw cheap units at it to scratch it enough to move anything you put there
don't make this get nasty.
it will harm us both
and ensure that one of the two top dogs wins this thing

Dazedroyalty: you say that

me: you and i are just on the edge of range where we can catch them.

Dazedroyalty: but refuse to NOT steal my cities tiles
or OB

me: we shouldn't throw that away

Dazedroyalty: so it's very inconsistent

me: you planted that city in the middle of the map. did you think no one would challenge that?
if you and i weren't on friendly turns i would have tried to kill the city when i found it

Dazedroyalty: i thought the guy i was "working with" would be mor ecooperative
i'm not asking you not to settle
just not to settle RIGHT on my border
if sian turned me down, i woulda understood
but even he was willing to negotiate

me: you'rea asking me to settle on the rice, which i could only do if i would never have to face an attack from you from that side.

Dazedroyalty: if you settle the rice and give OB, I promise not to attack you out of Function

me: if you agree to a non-invasion agreement from the globe city side, we have no reason to defend vs you and can settle the rice toward slowwalk
that sounds promising. if we can go into lawyer mode can we make this ironclad and put this behind us? you won't build a bunch of units in your adjacent cities and then run them straight into whatever i name the rice city from the two tiles to its east (i think it's a hill and grass?)
i'm looking for a screenshot

Dazedroyalty: I think it makes more sense to say I won't attack from the tiles between Function and "city to be named"
not where the units were built/stages
*staged
like there's a magic line of tiles I won't cross

me: yeah it doesn't matter where the units come from. how about to make it simple, on any tiles where the BFCs between function and Rice City overlap, neither of us can launch an attack. looks like 4 tiles that would encompass
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44346970/RB/PBEM...sSteal.JPG

Dazedroyalty: BFCs only over lap 2 tiles if you settle on the rice

me: oops, only 2
since the lines are drawn on the gems not the rice

Dazedroyalty: basically, nothing passes between the mountains

me: right. the grass and the hill 1E of the gems

Dazedroyalty: if we wanted to attack each other, it'd have to be north or south of mountains

me: correct. that way no one can be 1 moved, and i can defend on a hill before my city (pigs)

Dazedroyalty: ok

me: ok, if we're agreed on that, i will tell boldly about this provision, and if he doesn't object we'll consider this signed.
i need him to agree though so he doesn't violate another deal, knowingly or otherwise.

Dazedroyalty: can't you just tell him?

me: lol

you don't have a twin do you?

Dazedroyalty: no.

me: when we tell each other what to do, it usually ends in a fight. better to come to an agreement than dictate terms. (unrelated, but here's some insight: we both played tennis in high school, played doubles. but we couldn't play together because we'd fight too much)

Dazedroyalty: but if he doesn't agree, then we're back at square 0?

me: that's a good question....i'll tell him my name is on the thread and try to veto an objection. and if he breaks the agreement i'll let you burn the city when i get the save back. if you don't mind building me a cheap IMP settler i'll buy it off you.
that would suck though because it would prevent us from reestablishing trade
basically if he objects i'll just have to put him in the brig, i don't know.

Dazedroyalty: can we at least say for cetrain you won't setle there next turn?

me: i hadn't anticipated a mutiny!

Dazedroyalty: that gives us time to discuss

me: yeah, i won't settle next turn. i'm playing the saves during the week anyway so as long as i'm still at the helm i won't settle it
but that still leaves me the nagging question of what to do with him if he's insubordinate.
(not just on this issue, i mean in general!)

Dazedroyalty: what would mao do?

me: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44346970/RB/PBEM...NINATE.JPG

TL;DR - A lot of whining on both sides about "why you no friends with me?", rehashing old arguments and a bit of saber rattling, er, mace waving? Dazed says he needs OBs with Sian because every coin is precious, I tell Dazed his GNP sucks because he built way too many cities and is broke, he tells me his economic stimulus plan is Krill-approved so kthanksigotthis, he doesn't want war, can't afford war, but hey he's not trading with me anyway so he'll go to war if we insist on settling on top of him. I'm all, we'll both lose, he's all, i have no choice i can't lose that obvious landgrab city (ok, paraphrased...), i'm all you built a city in the middle of everything, i should have already burned it, he's all well what if i accept the same offer you gave me the other day only this time i propose it? So I lawyered it up and the deal basically says i'll settle the rice if he never marches an army through the two passable tiles where our front cities' BFCs overlap. No one can get one-moved by knights, etc. So we have a deal, pending me telling Boldly about it and him not rage-quitting my team. In theory this is supposed to mean I open borders with Dazed but I'm not doing it until I see closed borders between him and Sian. And if this deal blows up for some reason I'll make it my goal to ruin him in this game. Game, blouses.

I bought a house this weekend with less negotiation.:zzz: