[SPOILERS] A new Thread [SPOILERS]

[Mardoc]

Couple bits of news from civstats:

Furungy took (and razed?) a TBS city. I think that has to be the endgame for the Cartoonies. He's been doing a remarkably good job of involving himself with minimal investment in all the wars on his borders; makes me a bit nervous about him when our army goes overseas. Hopefully our tech lead continues to deter him.

For the first time in my tenure, the Ottomans are at the top of the scoreboard! Tied with Zanth at 1764 points. Of course, next turn I intend to flip into Slavery and start a deep whipping spree...but for the moment, we can celebrate.

[Mardoc]

In foreign news, Nakor's still having grave difficulties. Although - he seems to have made it to cannon and whipped out a round of those, which should help. I worry that it's too little, too late. Still, I have to say this much: from my perspective, Nakor has shed his 'yummy target' status. He's maybe not the best at defending yet (he's losing the war, after all), but he's putting a lot of effort in and definitely not coming cheap.

Donovan took peace with Zanth. Disappointing, but I suppose there wasn't much left that he could do anyway. Most of his cities were down to size 1-2, and probably have a ton of whip unhappy stacked up. At least this means Zanth is stymied on one front. As soon as I think it won't spook Zanth, I'll start gifting the Dutch all my excess resources. Given a little time and some more happiness, I think he could resume 'thorn in Zanth's side' status.



The other thing that'll help Nakor is this:




As long as Donovan doesn't give Zanth open borders, 2metra can raid with inpunity. That's quite a nice raiding force, too. I guess Zanth was thinking that he'd get borders? Or that 2metra might sign peace if the Dutch are safe?

We got Theology, and temporary score lead as a result. Then I revolted and started whipping. Didn't prepare quite as well as I might have, a lot of cities are finishing up a last infra build or some such. Still, we've 13 units expected to complete EOT, and should be able to keep up that pace for a while yet. And still upgrading cats to cannon - down to four of those left.

It did suppress our demos. Before:



After:



We're still gaining in GNP - but only slowly. That may change as I turn more coastal fishermen into riflemen, too. The other thing that cut into our lead was Zanth turning research on: 5 turns to Infantry/factories. Our breakeven and upgrading GNP is about on par with his 100% research rate, so we're still gaining, but he's still ahead. This isn't nearly as fast as I wish we were gaining. Nothing much to do about it but raze all his nice cash cities .

Also suppressed our MFG, but that's a bit misleading when it doesn't count whip hammers. I'm definitely less worried there.

We'll likely stay in slavery for a couple extra turns, maybe 6 or 7 total. That ought to be enough to use up all the low productivity pop and all the happiness surplus. Then I'll pop back to caste and use the workshops to finish our army.

This had better work!

[Mardoc]

Hmm...I play my turn with a theology/slavery revolt and a lot of whips, and Gavagai immediately posts. Somehow, I think this will not be a surprise. I need to flash some troops on the land border to make him believe that's where he has to defend.

Nice coincidence that I'd put off settling the city thataway. A settler/culture/worker push with a lot of troops streaming in does seem likely to focus his attention. Even if I intend it mostly as a shield, not a sword, it's easy to misinterpret.

Still, it may not work. I've seen two different Zanthian caravels wandering around recently. I hope that airships will let me route around them, but it wouldn't surprise me if he manages to spot my force. I guess worst case, I abort, and send the rifles after Furungy instead.

[Mardoc]

Hmm. Maybe my first airships should go to 2metra. Giving him solid info might be worth more than having the extra bombing capability for myself - even more than having the info for myself. Those 32 Cuirs are capable of doing quite a bit of damage; probably the only reason they aren't doing more is worry about Zanth's counterattack.

On top, 2metra's somehow got a significant force in TBS-land, doing work. Not really sure how he managed to build such a massive army, but I should take advantage of it while I can. Once that wraps up, he's likely to have even more to contribute against Zanth. Presuming that he continues to want to, of course.

Maybe gift a couple to the Dutch and Persians as well, if they're still relevant by the time I've got airships rolling off the production lines.

-----

Something else to bear in mind: I can abort. Should get some good last minute info from the airships that will let me know how things are going. Even if all I do is cause Zanth to spend hammers on infantry instead of factories, it's profit. Not nearly as much help as razing half his core - but it's better than having my army sunk and getting into an interminable war.

The demos are still awesome, and I've got a third GA coming along nicely (Edirne GP at EOT, Physics seems guaranteed, just need to scrape up one more). I don't see any reason to regret having enough cannon/hitters/airships to actually secure myself against invasion. Be faster than the bear, not just faster than your friends, and you don't have to worry about what if the bear's really really hungry .

I will be sad if that happens. This appears to be a great opportunity, one that would have been a little better if I'd pushed harder and been ready when it showed up, rather than scrambling to get ready. But...it's not required to win this.

What would make me abort? I can think of a few possibilities:
a) Zanth prepares. At least 2 Infantry in each coastal city would be enough to make this a whole lot less effective. Or, if he makes it to Combustion or Astro and builds a fleet. Minor win for me in that he's spending resources on something other than continued conquest or infra, but I still wouldn't want to fight that. At least not now - maybe revisit post-Combustion and with Marines.
b) Zanth gets peace with 2metra, or perhaps less significantly, finishes off Nakor. I don't have the ability to kill Zanth, just to cripple him and throw him to the wolves. But if the wolves aren't hungry...well, a crippled Zanth could still maybe take me out of the game.
c) Gawdzak, Furungy, BaII, or Other decides to liven things up for me. Their timing would be bad, right as I'm going through a modern unit buildup, but it could happen. This has been a weird game
d) Gawdzak or Furungy suffers a great setback somewhere else. Sure, tearing down my rival is the quickest way to get victory. Building myself up would be the surest path, though. I don't think I have enough military planned to kill either of them without help, but I should try to remain flexible in case opportunity presents. For instance: maybe 2metra takes peace with Zanth and heads east. Cuirs vs. Knight/cannon doesn't sound like a win for either side - but it'd be expensive and bloody, which is a cue for someone to pile in.

[Mardoc]

Apparently the barbs got the final kill on TBS! That must have been a very odd turn of events. I guess even TBS couldn't turn a three city empire into something that could survive forever. He did make it about five times longer than I thought possible, though! And kept the pace moving nicely - at least the pauses never seemed to be due to him, which is all you can ask for.

In other news, I'm feeling depressed about our chances again. Zanth fired off a golden age, putting his MFG significantly above ours and his GNP about on par (200 above, but he's 100% beakers and we're 60% beakers). Combined with his remaining 10K beaker lead and Org and continued conquests, he seems poised to grow a lot in the next 10 turns. I spotted an ironclad in Dutch waters, so he's not ignoring those, either.

Also, we don't seem to have as many good whippable cities as I thought. Granted, part of that is cities with too many hammers (a couple places got a 1-pop whip just for overflow into the next rifle) - but another large part is cities that are perfectly stagnated on, say, size 12 working mines. I don't want to whip them off the mines when I can't regrow them anytime soon.

Also, I found a reason why 2metra's not going in, and it's not imperfect info. Don't have the screenie here, but Zanth's got a second large army of cav and rifles parked in Amsterdam - in addition to the army he's got demolishing Nakor.

So basically, he's going to make it to infantry earlier than I thought, and have more hammers to spend on making infantry. And possibly also make it to railroads before I can show up.

I feel like I should switch my focus back to infrastructure pushes. More banks, more grocers, observatories. His GA will end; ours is due in 14 turns, and maybe we'll have a better opportunity later.

Dunno. The other hand, here, is that his armies are in fact busy. He can't abort the staredown with 2metra, nor the Nakorian campaign, so stopping me requires yet a third army built and deployed. And...if he's going to have a golden age anyway...surely it's to my benefit to push him to spend it on Infantry, not Factories? Even if all I do is make an army and let it sit around? Plus, I might be able to outproduce that portion of his empire that can focus on stopping me - he's got to keep reinforcing the other two fronts.

We're up to 4th Power already, with the one round of whips.

----------

In other news, I fired up Worldbuilder and confirmed that oil will substitute for coal in railroads, but not in coal plants. So it's likely that my next research, post Physics, will be Railroads - Combustion. It's hard to be certain - Corporation would be a nice benefit too, after all, and I might find myself wanting Cavalry to handle a Zanthian cannon stack. Or simply pushing up to Assembly Line myself - even if I can't benefit as much as Zanth, it could still be profitable.

[Mardoc]

On the bright sight, we are now at peace with 2metra (not a spoiler for anyone) and our three-way split is broken.

This means the Zanth coast-razing plan is aborted, for now anyway. Not going to poke the bear without an ally - not when I don't have an advantage that could actually kill him. Sadly for Nakor, I don't count him - he can't tie up enough Babylonian troops. I'll keep building military (at a slower pace) to keep my options open; next time I have an opportunity I want to take it immediately!

I can't even say that 2metra made a mistake to take peace. He did push back the Babylonians at a fairly small cost to himself, and once the Dutch were no longer on board, there's only so much he could do.

I'm going to have to survey my neighbors carefully once those Airships come in. Maybe I can grab a chunk of Rome yet. Or some of China.

I don't regret using Spiritual this way, though. In fact, I rather think I ought to repeat it in a while - maybe 20 turns from now or so once my cities have had a chance to regrow pop and shed the whip unhappy (say, right after the golden age ends). But perhaps half my last round of whips will be infra, not rifles.

That also argues greatly for the railroad path. Increase my flexibility, gain the mine hammers, and keep my options open. Ideally I can manage to push to Plastics fast enough that I can get Three Gorges. That would mean I don't actually need coal. Or maybe I can buy it off of dick76 once he finishes Steam Power.

[flugauto]

This peace means Gavagai/Zanth can build factories and power. When they get the factories, even a fullscale dogpile will not stop them. We can not even think about factories till Plastics, about the next 20 turns. GG?

[Mardoc]

When they get the factories, even a fullscale dogpile will not stop them.

I think I disagree here. They've been sloppy with all their wars so far. They've won, but that's generally because of their tech lead and because of the targets chosen - none of their targets has had better than catapults, and mostly the targets have just stacked units in cities and waited for the attack.

I think a more clever tactician could kill them even with a numbers disadvantage, so long as tech is closer to equal. And, well, the world's running out of backward civs. I should finish up my tech comparison to show you that. Finished us and them this morning before Civ froze in protest at all the minimizing; current state is Zanth at 65937 beakers and us at 57775.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Gawdzak catching up as well, not anymore. He's part of the reason I'm not willing to commit to total war.

We can not even think about factories till Plastics, about the next 20 turns.

Well - if we're committing to the Three Gorges attempt, then we can work on factories in advance. Not *as* useful as with power, but still handy. I'm looking for info on nuclear power - it may also be worth using despite the meltdown risk.

Further, they don't seem to have enough base hammers for the +75% to turn them into dominators. It'd put them in first, but not uncatchably so.

Gawdzak's probably got more land than they do. We don't - but we have fully-boosted workshops and the ability to use Kremlin-whips interspersed with Caste.

GG?

Nope, not at all. Or at least, it's still closer than it was. They're only half an era ahead of their major rivals, and they haven't been getting first-to bonuses anymore.

We just missed an opportunity. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. There's still a lot of game here.

[Mardoc]

Ok, I've finished a first run-through on total tech comparison. First time I've done this for BtS, so I may have accidentally given people a tech but not its prereq or similar errors. Still don't have the tech tree memorized.

Although there may be a 1-2K error here or there, it shows the general state of the game pretty well. Zanth leads, followed closely by me. Furungy and BaII are both close enough that I'm reluctant to fight them, but they're slipping. Gawdzak, 2metra, and dick76 are further behind; only their vast size makes them potentially still viable.

I did not bother with Nakor or Donovan. I don't think either will be significant more than 10 turns, although they may survive. Skipped Jowy as well since I believe his days are numbered.

[flugauto]

Nice comparison. You missed our Theology.