Q's Quietly Quitting Q Puns

[Qgqqqqq]

My deepest apologies to all the fun-loving cultists out there. A couple of single player games reminded me that what I really love in Civ is building.

Rhoanna of the Hippus; Calendar.

Apologies for the delay Ref!

[RefSteel]

Apologies for the delay Ref!

No need to apologize - especially not to me; I'm just obsessive about trying to avoid miscommunication! (Sometimes even successfully....) Like shallow_thought says, your choice here will have a big impact on a game you're expecting to play for months; it's more than reasonable to take your time making sure you pick one you'll really enjoy!

[Qgqqqqq]

Oof, everyone else went for fun civs! Oh well.

coldrain, playing Thessa of the Ljosalfar (HUNTING)
Miguelito, playing Valledia the Even of the Amurites (MYSTICISM)
BING_XI_LAO, playing Sandalphon of the Sidar (MYSTICISM)
Qgqqqqq, playing Rhoanna of the Hippus (CALENDAR)
Aurorarcher, playing Garrim Gyr of the Luchuirp (MINING)

Analysis tomorrow night.

[fireblaze]

Looks like a pretty free game depending on the geographies and a bit of rng, tbh. Lotta late scalers in there. What's the Sidar's competitive niche in mp, divided soul harass? I assume you generally dont have the settings/space/luck to snowball with shades, especially with a late start

[Qgqqqqq]

Turn 1:

Already going crazy on city 2


In case I want to check. Note no one has waited to settle (possible, with a t1 revolt), although I play before Auro.

[Qgqqqqq]

Coldrain as Thessa (EXP/ARC) of Ljolsofar (Hunting or Fishing or Cartography):

Player ?/5

• I have no idea who Coldrain is. I can't even find him on CFC, so this might be his first posting online related to FFH2. Anyone playing their first MP game can go a bunch of different ways - they can astound, or they can struggle, especially with playing with other players who will challenge you in ways the AI just can't.
  

Civ/leader: 4.5/5

• Early 4/5
  
• Mid 3.5/5
  
• Late 5/5
  

Thessa is in contention for the best Elf leader. EXP is an amazing trait, as discussed, and ARC gives a strong late game trait. The tricky part is that, unlike SPI Arendal Phaedra, mages pushes you down another path before all your tricks are out - as you probably also want to get Priests of Leaves anyway. Still, Elven economy, with EXP on a largeish map. I'd love to play this combo (if I hadn't played Arendal last time). Scary early (especially given tech), freaky late, but has a tough spot in the middle to get there. I would love to conquer them (albeit playing around the March) especially as I don't want to face them later.

Tech: 5/5 

• Even if you have no hunting resources, hunting is an amazing early tech, giving access to a tier 2 unit early that can help capture animals. It also puts him a lot closer to FotL. I played a single player game recently where I didn't research mining for ~110t, and Agrarianism is much less important for Ljolsofar (forest farms).
  
• (Unless this has no land resources, there's no way this is Fishing, and Cartography shouldn't even get a look in.)
  

Overall: ?4?/5

• This is the best combo of the lot, with the only competition being Rhoanna - though I'd prefer Thessa on a large map with our starting setup. I need to REX to beat it, while not dying to early hunters or use fast moving cavalry to make progress in the early-mid game. We can't compete on an even playing field, and EXP means it might be somewhat even.  I don't even want to start next door given the risk of a invasion
  
• The question is the player. Is Coldrain a competent single player who will fold in multiplayer, a secret god who's studied our ways to beat us, or somewhere in between?
  

Miguelito as Valledia the Even (ORG/ARC/ING) of Amurites (Mysticism)
Player: 4/5

• Miguelito has always impressed as a player, and put in a great showing in the last PBEM, coming back with a good stack despite losing his capital early. He still has less experience with FFH2, and I wouldn't expect him to pop out with unexpected tricks in the way Ellimist might. Solid, not to be underestimated, but not someone I'm scared to be next to.
  

Leader/Civ: 2.5/5

• Early 2/5
  
• Mid 3/5
  
• Late 5/5
  

Up there with Tebryn Arbendai in late game powerhouse, the Amurites have never put in a strong showing online. Their tools come very late, and Firebows, commonly cited for Single Player are still pretty late, expensive, and off the beaten path. If this were a later-era game, perhaps. But they have nothing to get them there. As I've mentioned, ORG is a pretty meh trait, again rewarding late-game - Dain for a fast T1 Elder Council would be far better IMO. ING is surprisingly relevant for late-game mages, but still not a real trait. Also, in a mage heavy field they can shut any other player down for a period.

Tech 4/5

• As discussed, I think T1 Godking is quite strong - but though it boosts the start immediately more than Hunting, I don't think it's in the same league given the military applications.
  

Overall: 3.5/5

• A very weak combo, packed with a strong player. If he can get to his tools with a decent core, an early archmage and 5-10 spellstaff mages would pose a challenge. But he'll have a hard time getting there with very little to help him. I wouldn't mind being near Miguelito, though I expect him to use the vanilla tools for a competent defense.
  

BING_XI_LAO, playing Sandalphon (PHI/IND) of the Sidar (MYSTICISM)

Player: 2/5

• Bing has demonstrated in recent games (PB65, 72) that he can put on a decent show, especially with a dedlurker to help with early micro. He's also never quite converted that to a win, and he's had numerous showings where he just failed to shine, ending up as mid-game food. Someone described him as the ultimate player for taking every turn as they come - an attitude I have deep admiration for and which helps him maintain a pretty impressive PYFT rating, but at the price of lax micro and a bit of a lack in long-term planning. That's something that can hurt in EitB in particular, as there's a bunch of hidden mechanics or unintuitive parts. The meta is also very different from BTS, which Bing breezed straight past last game, building a bunch of useless buildings and rituals that gave minimal return.
  

Leader/Civ: 4/5

• Early 3/5
  
• Mid 5/5
  
• Late 4/5
  

The Sidar are a civ I really wanted to try. Their recon is super strong, with EitB expanding the sever soul mechanic to all recon (I need to check if this includes scouts), making their hunters, ghosts, and rangers hyper-mobile. Waning now requires level 5 (17xp), giving a mechanism to transfer military->economy - especially useful on a Wildlands map. Unfortunately, Sandalphon is easily their worst leader. IND is even weaker with the first worker already out, as discussed earlier. PHI synergises well with IND and Mysticism, and an early academy with shades settled could really boost their mid-game. But CHA/ARC Shekinah gives shades at 13xp, and gives a stronger late-game to build to.

Tech 4.5/5

• See above, though PHI Sandalphon has some synergies.
  

Overall: 3/5

• I hate to say it, but Bing is the player I'd most like to start next to. His slow expansion last game gave me a chance despite a terrible start. This time his strongest units are naturally countered by horsemen. He could surprise on the upside, and the Sidar do have some tricks up their sleeve, the question is just if he's best placed to use them.
  

Auroracher as Garrim Gyr (FIN/ARC) of the Luchuirp (Mining or Masonry)

Player 5/5

• Auroracher is the strongest FFH2 player still in the circuit. While he doesn't reach the commanding heights of TBS or Ellimist (who was, in my opinion, the strongest FFH2 MP player of all time) he knows all the tricks of the trade and can execute them extremely well. He's not unbeatable or freakish, but you can't give him an inch or he'll exploit it to the fullest. Easily the player I'm most scared of in this game.
  

Civ/Leader: 4/5

• Early 4/5
  
• Mid 4/5
  
• Late 4.5/5
  

The secret about Garrim Gyr is he's the golem leader that only makes mud golems. Golems are generally considered too slow for MP, and Garrim leans into this - using mages and dwarven druids, complemented as required by chariots instead of wood golems. Early, the start is slightly bouyed by the free mud golem and the ability to grow on another. Mid game there's a period of weakness, especially as bronze warriors can't be used - will he be vulnerable to a rush? Or will he go for some wood golems or up RoK? However, his worldspell gives him a leg up on 1-2 wonders. Once he can get to mages he's in a strong position, but not at the commanding heights of Thessa (worse economy) or Valledia (spellstaff mages). FIN is some help in getting there, but it's not amazing. A medium strength combination.

Tech: 5/5

• I'm assuming he starts with gold here, as I'd be surprised if I have it and others don't. If he has incense or dye instead, 4/5. Suspect he'll go for RoK early with a head start.
  

Overall: 4.5/5

• The scariest player, slightly weighed down by a civ that's fun, and not weak but also not the strongest. Still, unless Coldrain surprises, I expect him to be our most dangerous competition. As with others, unsure if I want to be close by to attack early, or far away to expand unhindered. 
  

Finally, Quiddity as Rhoanna (EXP/FIN) of Hippus (Calendar)

Player: 4/5

• Competent builder who can come up with hair brained schemes but also sloppy, bad at strategic thinking/reading the game state, and prone to bouts of despair that leave me phoning it in, especially when real life intervenes.
  

Civ/Leader: 4.5/5

• Early 4.5/5
  
• Mid 5/5
  
• Late 3/5
  

As discussed, a very strong economic powerhouse, with powerful potential on a REX-y map. Midgame fast-moving horsemen can fork enemy cities, and the worldspell adds an extra punch. The only issue is we do fall off pretty hard in the late game, with nothing really to bring to the table. The idea is to have twice everyone else's cities and get to that late game earlier.

Tech: 4/5, see upthread.

Overall: 4.5/5

• I'm in contention based on a pick that is, I suspect, stronger than most of the field (I think Thessa is slightly stronger on these settings). I don't think I'm the weakest player here, so I should be able to leverage that to a competitive position. The question is, will I?
  
• If I could do it again, I'd pick Tebryn - (almost) everyone else is having fun with their picks, it would have been nice to give them a ride in that environment. Ah well, just have to make the most of it
  

[shallow_thought]

Nice analysis, as always. Will be interesting to see what happens.

I feel that warfare in these games resolves around access to:
- Some way of softening up the enemy without losses.
- Mobility.
- Vision, both ranged and to see hidden / stealthed units.

Hippus have mobility pretty well covered, at least. For the first, I do think they have an option that other civs don't - which is to try to make use of maximizing retreat chance by stacking Flanking on top of their natural ability. I just don't know if it's at all practical in MP. And you do have Air Mana anyway if you can spare the beakers for Sorcery and can scrounge up the XP for your Adepts. Although I guess Rosier fits well with a cavalry-heavy force if you want to go down that path. [EDIT] As for the third, [/EDIT] we'll see what's available in the game, but IIRC it's definitely a threat from the Sidar in particular (I have vague memories of someone - Mackoti? - doing well with them).

Whatever tactical tricks are available, more build queues has a power of its own, of course.

[Qgqqqqq]

I think you're right. The one caveat I'd add is that early on, softening up is slightly less relevant. Retreating horsemen can be super powerful in this period. I do like seeking collateral from religion as a non-ARC civ - which could be cultists in a pinch or ritualists later. Good point re vision, will need to factor that in as well.

I've added in a reference to Garrim's worldspell, which strengthens Luchuirp midgame by guaranteeing a wonder.

[fireblaze]

I could see retreat stacking going either way, especially if you can get a good core around it-- but you'd think most civs/players would have some way to clean up at least a portion of them, reducing your "hammers saved" and making you wonder if a couple extra points in strength or anti-type couldn't have just won you a fight instead. I've been playing a couple casual-ish mp games on EMM recently but nothing cutthroat, so wondering how all that shakes out. If nothing else, the entire recon line having access to divided soul opens up some insane play potentials, honestly hard to imagine a stronger fork potential than a deathball coming from some completely unexpected direction with them --- would definitely be scared of them if they get going in the earlymid, doubly so if there's enough barbs for them to farm for a strong eco behind it.

e. speaking of, is the preference generally chariots or horse archers? I guess the former depends on your metal availability, with horse archers letting you save the siege workshop build + being quicker to tech right to, with less punching power later game (but better for flanking spam cheese). On that line of thought, Rosier is nice but I'd imagine Hippus are (potentially) even more incentivized to go AC->Hell to roll for access to Nightmares (and sheuit stones), which could really spike the threat power behind your wall of horses mid-late

[Qgqqqqq]

Well the thing about flanking in FFH2 is you retreat on defence as well - meaning a 95% retreat unit has to be surrounded to guarantee a cleanup. Vs AI I tend to favour shock because mobility is less necessary, it's more about killing lots of enemy units than mastering the tactics.

Divided souls are definitely powerful, especially around mountains. But you can always see the soul and so it's similar mobility to a horse archer, generally.

Traditionally, chariots have been favoured for the first strike and strength requirement. Remember that horsemen require a stable anyway. Not sure if that is shifted at all by the recon bonus.