Varn of the Illians - Serdoa and WK playing it cool

[Serdoa]

Ok, after the turn report is done, lets look at the demos at little closer and find out why I decided to cast Stasis. First in spoilers (because it is big) a screenie of my excel-table I use to follow the demos:

Thats quite a few numbers already and I am pretty certain I got them right, except for the soldier points at T5 because there is no way to differeniate between Sareln, Mist and Amelia on those. I feel I got the numbers itself right though, I just have no clue who has produced the warrior and which two produced scouts. But as Sareln will probably want warriors the most (to upgrade them to PZs later) I gave the warrior to him for now.

Anyway, lets start with Sareln:

Worked T0 and T1 a 3/0/1 tile before he switched to a 2/0/3 (financial) tile. He probably was the one who built a warrior on T5. He also grew to size 2 at EOT5. He is researching something without pre-req, so probably he is researching Crafting. He needs another 50 beakers for it, with the current Stasis that are 18 turns of research. Apart from that, nothing interesting I can tell from the demos.

Mist

Worked a 3/0/1 tile from the start till T4, grew EOT4. Is now working another 3/0/1 tile. Produced a scout. Research is probably Agriculture, but tbh I have no clue aside from it being something without pre-req. But Agri does make more sense then Exploration or Crafting imo.

Amelia

Now we get to the real stuff. Amelia started off like everyone else with a 3/0/1 tile. He grew EOT4 and produced a scout EOT5. Nothing special till here. But if we look at the T4 and T5 figures something is off. He has 2 pop but his figures amount to 8/4/16 respectively 6/7/14. His cap is getting him 1 hammer and 10 commerce. That leaves us with 8/3/6 respectively 6/6/4 to be produced via 3 tiles. City center is 2/2/1 (everyone settled a PH, only SL settled no the initial starting PH). So we still need to produced 6/1/5 respectively 4/4/3 via 2 tiles - even if he got some sort of mushroom-event, that won't cut it. I agonized over that quite a bit today because I was sure that those numbers are right. The question was not "Have I got something wrong with the demos" but only "How does he do it?". The only explanation I found was: He got a Golden Age. As the Grigori. On T4. Really, really lucky - thank god I have Stasis to counter that Ok, that is not the only reason tbh. He should have gone up from 5 GPP/turn to 7 GPP/turn. He had already produced 20 of the needed 67 GPP before the GA. 47 more would normally take him 10 more turns. With the GA it would have been 7. 3 turns more or less for his first adventurer really don't change all that much. Also the slightly higher GNP and MfG are nothing I would worry about too much. But nonetheless it was the first point which made me consider using Stasis.

Square Leg

SL moved on T1 to another PH. Not sure why as I assume now that our starts are nearly mirrored so there is not much reason to do that I feel. Maybe the surrounding area is much better then ours though. He is also the only one who started worker first like us. Apart from that the only thing worth to tell is that he popped two techs.

Krill

Popped a tech T1 and started immediately to research something with a pre-req. I assume that is either Agri -> Calendar or Crafting -> Masonry. Everything else doesn't seem to make too much sense imo. Looking at his demos it starts of normally but then T3 he got 4000 soldier points. I tested several possibilities (Lizardmen, Axemen event, popping a scout or warrior from a hut [if that is even possible in FFH, I can't remember], supplies, ...) but nothing added 4000 points. Till I added the same unit I popped in PBEM2: an adventurer. And bingo, there are 4000 soldier points. Thats bad news for everyone near him - which could very well be us (especially with my typical luck). One turn later he produced another goblin, upping his military to 2 goblins, 1 warrior, 1 adventurer. He had also produced a total of 16 hammers as of last turn so without Stasis he could have finished another goblin this turn. I don't want Krill having 5 units on T5. Thats the second point why I popped Stasis, as I hope that will keep him at home. Yes, Krill might not be near us, true. But no matter who is near Krill, if Krill has enough units to choke or even kill that civ, he will have too much land to expand into. And if he got Crafting on T0 then he will have the means necessary to produce settlers and workers in big numbers pretty quickly.

I probably will get yelled at for using Stasis like I did, but apart from what I explained above, I had already planned to use it at T6 or T7, making sure that no one would have produced a worker. T7 because on T8 Sareln, Mist and Amelia could have finished their worker before I am playing. T6 just to make sure nothing unforeseen happens. So, after all it is simply one or two turns earlier then planned. Now that they have produced no worker first that might not get me an easy barbarian kill on one of them (though as told in the last turn report, we have wandering goblins already) but I think it does help me more then waiting some more turns which would only give them the opportunity to get even more units. Basically I think the decision was "use it now" or "use it when you attack someone". And I think I am better off with using it now. Lets see in 6 months if I was right or not

[WarriorKnight]

So we still need to produced 6/1/5 respectively 4/4/3 via 2 tiles - even if he got some sort of mushroom-event, that won't cut it. I agonized over that quite a bit today because I was sure that those numbers are right. The question was not "Have I got something wrong with the demos" but only "How does he do it?". The only explanation I found was: He got a Golden Age. As the Grigori. On T4. Really, really lucky - thank god I have Stasis to counter that

I don't see what's so worrying about Amelia having a Golden Age this early. Like you said, they get their 1st Adventurer 3 turns earlier which is unremarkable and likewise the tile yield increase is negligible this early. Plus I think Statis pauses Golden Ages anyway, so he won't lose any GA time.

Looking at his demos it starts of normally but then T3 he got 4000 soldier points. I tested several possibilities (Lizardmen, Axemen event, popping a scout or warrior from a hut [if that is even possible in FFH, I can't remember], supplies, ...) but nothing added 4000 points. Till I added the same unit I popped in PBEM2: an adventurer. And bingo, there are 4000 soldier points. Thats bad news for everyone near him - which could very well be us (especially with my typical luck). One turn later he produced another goblin, upping his military to 2 goblins, 1 warrior, 1 adventurer. He had also produced a total of 16 hammers as of last turn so without Stasis he could have finished another goblin this turn. I don't want Krill having 5 units on T5. Thats the second point why I popped Stasis, as I hope that will keep him at home. Yes, Krill might not be near us, true. But no matter who is near Krill, if Krill has enough units to choke or even kill that civ, he will have too much land to expand into. And if he got Crafting on T0 then he will have the means necessary to produce settlers and workers in big numbers pretty quickly.

How would Statis help? Yes Krill has quite a few units. But Adventurers need to be upgraded before they should be sent out, being weak to start off with (and time to get some XP) and Goblins want to defeat a wolf ASAP, the only thing Statis does is prevent people from building warriors to counter (knowing Krill, he'll probably send them out anyway because of this). I dunno, this just seems like a poor excuse to use Statis.

Basically I think the decision was "use it now" or "use it when you attack someone". And I think I am better off with using it now. Lets see in 6 months if I was right or not

Well, I've always been a fan of holding it until later. Of course 14 turns on everyone this early is nice too, but saving it does let the others worry about when you'll cast it, not to mention the easier kill for you.

Anyway, what's done is done. Let's just hope the barbs are painful to everyone else this early.

[uberfish]

Casting stasis right now will probably ruin everyone else's scouting in addition to stealing worker turns. Saving it later would create the possibility of catching someone with not enough military at the time you attack. I don't think there's one right answer.

[Serdoa]

Well, I think that early Stasis did put us in a stronger early game position. That hopefully will help us to stay ahead long enough to actually get the priests into the game before anyone has the opportunity to hurt us. With them we should be able to stomp one opponent, getting enough land to tech to Ritualists. What I really need to get prevented from though is to stray to far away from the right course. I need to focus on one win condition and pursue it instead of doing stuff because it sounds interesting.

Anyway, for now we are still at the start of the game and we have played some turns since my last report (6 to be exact). I'll make a quick rundown on them:

T6: nothing happened

T7: got an event



-2 crime rate in Garduk won't really change all that much, but hey, it is our first event in this game and it was not a bad one so

T8: finished research



and had to choose the next target



as discussed already, Calendar was next. I know that this will delay the priests by some turns and maybe I will lose for that reason (if somebody attacks me shortly before) but not teching at least some basic stuff to get settlers and workers out quicker (Agrarianism) + get some more commerce would hurt more in the long run I believe.

Btw: Getting the plantation on the silks will give us +3 commerce. The tech for it does cost 160 beakers. If it would not have been for Agrarianism I would not tech it as the upped commerce is simply not worth it short term. If we get a second city up north though and work the planation there it might actually be worth it. I'll have to sim that out.

T9: nothing happened

T10: somebody lost a warrior



Average Soldiers gone down from 8400 to 7800. 600 x 5 = 3000. As rival best and rival worst are still 12000 respectively 5000 it has to be a warrior of either Mist, Amelia or Sareln. Can't say whom though till I met them.

and my scout is OP



T11: popped a hut, got



Fishing. Not sure if I can actually use it. Trade on rivers is great, but if they are all in my culture it does work anyway, doesn't it? If yes, then it only helps if I settle far away from my cap. Something I probably won't do. Of course, I can also build Heron Throne now if I find a city worth it (Inland Sea doesn't make that very likely I think) and actually have the spare hammers for it... still, a free tech is and I have good chances on OO. What could be helpful as it would change me from Good to Neutral I think.

[Serdoa]

T12: we finished the farm on the wheat, making it a 6/0/1 tile. That had us making enough food to grow to size 2. We also have finished a warrior.

EOT look at the land we know:

1. 3x Sheep -> AH rather sooner then later I thought first but except for the one near the capital the tiles will have nearly the same yield with a farm and Agrarianism. Just 1 commerce less. 180 beakers for AH means we need to work the 3 sheep tiles for 60 turns to get the investment back. If we can somewhere get a Hunting Lodge built to produce Hunters, I might rethink it simply for Subdue Animal, but for now I don't see AH very high on the list of useful things.

2. 3 Mana Nodes nearby -> I haven't thought much about mana as we have a long way to go till we can use it anyway. But 3 mana nodes nearby still mean that we can probably think about a Tower of Mastery victory.

3. Reagents and Ivory up north -> Our 2nd city clearly goes 3N of our capital on the plains tile. I don't see any place near which could compete with Reagents and Floodplains (north of the Reagents is another one I think) and Ivory. Thats not only commerce but also with 4 pop we can produce 2-turn warriors and we can use one floodplain of the capital to grow it as soon as the capital doesn't need that tile anymore.

4. Furs in the SW -> Another happy, though I am unsure on the city placement as of now. Probably on the plains 2N of it, but before AH and chain irrigation that will not be possible if I want that city to ever grow. The goblin fort nearby doesn't make it look any better tbh.

5. West are several more floodplains -> Depending on the civs nearby, I'd probably would want to threaten the one in the west to cede those sites to me and to conquer the one in the east. Though THAT really depends on whom we have nearby. Anyway, east doesn't look that promising right now with mostly desert.

6. Goblin 1W,1SW the cap -> 2 warriors are sitting in the cap. Depending on how that goblin moves I might have to attack it, as I want to farm the floodplains. I should have moved one warrior onto the forest 1SW of the cap last turn, giving me at least a 50/50 battle. Well, anyway. If the goblin moves 1E on the forest, I'll stick with both warriors in the cap and wait for him to attack. If he moves 1NE on the floodplains I probably have to move one warrior to cover the worker on the floodplains. That means risking worker and warrior though, but I should get +40% for the goblin crossing the river if he attacks, meaning he will only have a 12.2% chance to win. Still, Thats 12.2% chance to throw away the whole game. Lets hope he moves differently.

7. Last but not least, there is the question what to produce next. I have tested yesterday two approaches, both times research path Calendar -> Ancient Chants -> Myst -> Philo:

a) Worker, then 2 warriors till we hit size 7, settler, warrior, settler, worker. That leads to at EOT43:

- Philo finished
- 3 cities: sizes 8/4/1
- 10 improvements
- 3 workers
- 5 warriors
- White Hand finished EOT55

b) 3 Warriors, then a worker, another warrior, settler, warrior, settler, worker. That leads to at EOT43:

- Philo finished
- 3 cities: sizes 7/3/1
- 9 improvements
- 3 workers
- 6 warriors
- White Hand finished EOT56

Having 3 cities guarded by 2 warriors each seems already stretching it in FFH. Having one of it guarded only by one is asking for trouble I think. Of course that is without the production of city 2 (city 3 only got settled and is worthless at T43). I feel that the worker first approach is very prone to barbs and chokes and I don't see much difference to the warriors first approach. Honestly, I had expected to see much more difference but having the second worker 7 turns earlier don't seem to make that much difference in the long run. I do grow into improvements instead of making improvements after I've grown into the tiles already but somehow that growing first approach is getting me more hammers in exchange for worker turns and slightly bigger cities. I am not even delaying my first city much, just 1 turn.

edit: calculated it. It is 50 food more for 40 hammers less. Pretty much equal beakers. I'm not sure which way to go. Probably warriors first, just to be on the safe side.

[Serdoa]

T13: Nothing happened. We started another warrior and farming the floodplains 1NW of the capital as the goblin moved onto the forest. Hopefully he attack into the city, with it being on a hill my warrior should have str 6+ (river crossing 40%, hill 25%, warrior defending city 25%, fortify 10%) and therefore normally no issues to dispatch that goblin.

As can be read above, I decided to go with the warrior first approach. I did some more testing on the weekends and with some tile changes I could get exactly 160 beakers into Calendar on T19 already (one turn earlier then the worker first approach). I still have to decide what to do at size 4. I can either go on with building warriors or start a worker. Going with warriors till size 7 and optimizing it did result in basically the same as the 3 warriors -> worker approach but with the same city sizes as the worker first approach (8/4/1) and also 11 improvements.

I am still not sure what really is the best to do, but at least that will be the safest approach and won't cost me all that much. I might even substitute some warriors with an Elder Council if everything looks fine diplomatically.

[Serdoa]

I can't believe how much fun I have right now with this game, despite it being started. That I got a tooth extracted yesterday and am posting today should tell you alot (hint: I won't be at work for a week due to that extraction). It reminds me on PBEM7. Maybe it is simply that I am not involved in so many games but can concentrate fully on this one. And on PBEM14 of course *cough*.

T14: We got an event



Yeah, whatever. Does that do anything?

The goblin near our capital moved onto the forest, so that my worker could move to farm the floodplains. Lets hope that gobo suicides into my warriors this turn. That would make that area 100% safer. And safe would be good as somehow probably found out as well. Demos from last turn:



[strike]Soldiers Average is down to 7000 from 7800.[/strike] I realized that Soldier Average was 7400 on T13, it was 7800 on T12. Somebody lost 2000 points on T13 and then someone lost 2000 again on T14. Taking everything I know into account I can conclude that

Krill: 12000
SL: 5000
Amelia, Sareln, Mist: 4000, 6000, 8000 - not sure who has what

At least one of them has only the starting warrior left to defend. That could get ugly. Especially if it is my neighbour whom my scout should ran into soon. And after he



robbed a graveyard, he probably is followed by



as well as since several turns

[WarriorKnight]

Yeah, whatever. Does that do anything?

It extinguishes all fires in your land. Of course most of the time no-one has fires in their land anyway so it doesn't make much of an impact.

People losing warriors in Statis, that's a good sign. Free Fishing is pretty nice too, although it's kinda useless due to lack of coast (and hence OO probably isn't worth going for). White Hand finishing around T55 is very quick, I doubt anyone else but Krill will have anything comparable by then, but there's plenty of time between now and then.

[Serdoa]

Unbelieveable, but we are at T18 already. So I owe you some turn reports

T15: First things first, we got our third event this game:



Well, if I would be evil, I could have got quite some beakers towards the researched tech. A shame that the leader decides your alignment. Not only in this case btw, we could get the PoW 4 or 5 turns earlier if we would be evil by researching Way of the Wicked and whipping the cap.

Anyway, we also had a goblin attacking us in the interturn:



Gave us 1XP. Whatever, at least we are rid of the guy and can farm in safety.

T16: The only important thing happening?



Yeah, Ellimist to our west. Quite far to our west. Our cap is 29 tiles from the west-most point of this map. Meaning that our neighbour to the east probably is a better target in regards to reaching him quickly. Unfortunately Ellimist probably is the softest target we can find.

However, I've send out a greeting message:

[COLOR="PaleTurquoise"]Hi Mist and Ellimist,

My scout stumbled upon you this turn and I am happy to welcome you as my neighbours I hope you are not upset about Stasis, it is simply one of the tools of the Illians and not using it would be foolish. And hey, at least you know now that I don't intend to use it to attack you, right?

How is life going for you - except for Stasis? Have you met anybody else already? I myself did not, but I got lucky to pop two techs from huts, even though they are completely and utterly unimportant for my chosen tech-path. I mean it would be ridiculous to get the right techs popped so that priests can be fielded by T47, even though you yourself are going for a peaceful route in your research, wouldn't it? But of course nobody would get that lucky.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

And thats it for those two turns.

[Serdoa]

T17: Nothing of importance happened. I got the graphs for Ellimist and know now that the soldier points are as follows:

Krill: 12000
Sareln / Amelia: 8000
Ellimist: 6000
Square Leg: 5000
Sareln / Amelia: 4000

Ellimist was the one who built the warrior on T5 and lost it on T10. The other two built a scout which one has still (+his starting scout and warrior) and the other one has only his warrior left.

Well, ok, nothing of importance was not the full truth



Krill popped another tech. That makes it two for him, SL and myself each. Honestly, I think the next time we might have to think about deleting huts. Or better: I thought. Then T18 happened.

T18: And I decided to move to that dungeon next to Ellimists capital. And look what I found



Two gold, an oasis and a river, meaning probably a floodplains or two at least. And a reagents, but I have that as well. But honestly, that is next to his cap? I don't say the land near my cap is bad or anything, but even with popping Hunting it is not comparable to that. Of course he needs Mining for it, but even with the prereq Crafting that is cheaper then Hunting which I had needed to get another happy (and a much worse tile output on the ivory then with mining on gold). I WANT SUCH A SPOT TOO!!!!

Anyway, I won't get such a spot. so instead I popped the dungeon on which I had moved to find



Timor Mask. In my tests in SP it does fear your targets away when you successfully attack a stack. Does someone know if that

a) does count for any unit (living, non-living, siege, etc.) apart from those being fear-immune of course?

b) does work on units in cities as well? If they don't move out of the city, are they at least not able to move or attack?