This Time for Sure: Mardoc reprises the Lanun

[Mist]

Yes. Actually I do

If we get Fishing from that hut, we can go coast crazy and I won't say a word against it

And seriously, yes, I guess it is worth a sandbox, because I just can imagine how working no improved tiles for the first 20 turns ( rough time to tech fishing and push out a workboat ) and one improved tile for another 5 after that could work out better than a worker making farms, plantation and roads leading into quick second settler. But maybe it's just me, the 'go coast religion' heretic

[Mardoc]

DaveV: Thanks!

@everyone else - figures that we start out with a dilemma

I can guarantee you that if everyone's start is like this, they're wishing they were Falamar, though - we've got a significantly stronger capital in the long run than they do. It's just the question of getting there from here.

I think we can agree to settle in place, on the plains hill? And send the scout immediately to the hut, on the hope of good things? And that some permutation of Fishing, Agriculture, Calendar, Animal Husbandry, Crafting, Mining, should be the first set of techs?

As a devil's advocate: 1 S loses a turn (assuming non-Super settler), there is this option (and if forts allow workboat passage, a chance to later cove the lake, too). This requires us to gamble on exploring the shipwreck, and loses the plains hill start. But...well, 3 or 4 coves, plus a Fish, plus all the other resources.


I've made a sandbox with what we see (only guessed at 2 tiles in the BFC). Didn't bother with anything further away, nor am I sure this is the right map size (matters for tech costs). Although all the tech cost ratios will be the same!

It's here if you want to play around with it. We'll have to redo the sandbox as soon as we know the contents of the hut, though. If you don't have time to play with it to support your case, I'll try to fit in both options sometime tomorrow.

If you want to give it a whirl, I figure a good stopping point is about when we get the capital to size 7, working all improved tiles. Which means all of the above techs, and growth; at least the corn, cow, and silk improved and roaded, and one other tile, plus 2 coves and the fish.

I've got this much, anyway. Techs, and time to get them working the cow (10% faster if we work the silk instead)

Tech costs (time) [tile yields enabled]:
Fishing: 228 (19) [2/0/2, 3/0/2 (lake), 6/0/3 (fish), 2/0/4 -> 4/2/6 (cove), 3/0/4 ->5/2/6 (lake cove)]
Agriculture: 114 (13) [5/0/0 (corn)]
Crafting: 171 (19) [ - ]
Calendar: 228 [2/0/4 +1 happy (silk), boost farms +1]
Animal Husbandry: 257 [3/3/0 (cow)]
Mining: 286 [1/0/3 (mine), forest chops]

Similarly, first worker is in 13 turns, max pace. Workboat is 20 H, we'd build it at a larger size presumably.

Just given the raw data, I'm leaning toward fishing first, because those techs are pricey. It's possible actually playing it out will convince me I'm wrong.

[Mist]

If we're speaking raw data add time delay you suffer before you get to full cove tile yields :P

Apart from that 1S is a non-starter, forts don't act like channels in FFH. If you'd want to move anywhere it's 1N for a weaker start but more long time production ( more hills to be mined + ph mine ) while still keeping 2 coves.

[Mardoc]

Gah, just realized I left the sandbox on normal speed. It's not going to be very useful that way

I don't have the time tonight to fix it, either.

That also means those tech costs are much too high, making my intuition wrong.



@Mist: I am saddened to discover that the 4-cove capital isn't going to be possible . In that case, I'm 90% sure that settling in place is the better option. Losing a cove, but gaining 1 food on a remaining cove, 1 turn, and better early game production, I think that tradeoff is worth it. I still intend to sandbox to try to settle the question of Fishing first or not.

[Jkaen]

Just as an aside on the whole map planning approach thing. I can't really discuss things too much, but note that the following was posted in the tech thread, and doesn't seem to have been discussed by the team at all:

In the innumerable taverns and inns found in every nation and corner of Erebus, talk often turns to rumors of fabled treasures, just waiting a hardy enough (or sufficiently foolish) Adventurer to claim their spoils. They take many forms; caches of powerful technologies long-lost from the Age of Magic. The Hoard of some powerful dragon. Hidden armies of Golems, ready to serve whoever can whisper the right command.

Among these tales are the legendary riches of the Sierra Madre, a mountain range found on a distant island. The story goes that the land was claimed many years ago by a band of Dwarven prospectors. Striking inland, they discovered an immense vein of Gold. According to their customs, they consolidated their find within a great Vault, equal parts treasury and citadel. At first, the Dwarves reveled in their good fortune. But soon greed began to take its toll. Disputes over shares turned to violent conflict, until the island was consumed in all-out warfare. The Dwarves who didn't perish in the conflagration were easy prey for the Barbarians who subsequently emerged from the jungles and forests, eager as always to plunder the ruins of civilization.


The Sierra Madre passed into the haze of history, lost to living memory. But the Treasure of the Sierra Madre does have one advantage over other tavern tales:

The Sierra Madre is real.



Though various & mysterious means, five maps have reached an equal number of civilizations, showing the location of the Sierra Madre's isle. Bringing only a small retinue with them, the leaders of each civilization have embarked on a quest to claim the Treasure for themselves, their ultimate goals known to them alone.

[Selrahc]

Apart from that 1S is a non-starter, forts don't act like channels in FFH. If you'd want to move anywhere it's 1N for a weaker start but more long time production ( more hills to be mined + ph mine ) while still keeping 2 coves.

Take the Heron Throne and Shipyard into account for long term questions.

Grass Mine=3h
Heron Throne, Shipyard sea tile=2h
Heron Throne, Shipyard cove=4h

1s maxes out at 40h/turn (with lumbermills, mines and 4 coves, heron throne+shipyard, but no workshops or republic towns)
1n maxes out at 32h/turn, (assuming another mine, but no sea tiles in the fog, mines and lumbermills on available tiles, 2 coves, heron throne+shipyard) as well as being weaker in commerce and food production.

Early production, the 1s gets a plains hill mine, and at least 3 coves to get a fairly nice 16h/turn before adding in water production bonuses or lumbermills.

[Jkaen]

Settling in place also 'wastes' some coastline that you will not be able to use later for another city (at least 3 tiles, maybe 5)

Reading the fog it seems 3N, 2W is coast, so 1S capital gives you a future city 3N, 1W which ensures you don't lose the grassland, and just overlaps the silk and the plainsforest. The second city wastes 2 squares of coast, but those are non coveable squares assuming the proposed layout

[Amelia]

Stop settling in place and letting good ports go to waste mardoc =) With that aside, a lake cove is the best thing in the game. So i can't really say anything.

[Mardoc]

Stop settling in place and letting good ports go to waste mardoc =) With that aside, a lake cove is the best thing in the game. So i can't really say anything.

That's my dilemma, aye. I did regret not moving a little bit further east in PBEM 3. On the other hand, I was old-style financial there, and had mostly jungle on the other side.

@Sareln - I know the idea of a 'collapse lair' spell was discussed, the idea being you could destroy a lair without risking bad results by also giving up good ones. Did that actually make it into the mod, or is it still under consideration?

It'd be really handy right now - that's the other trouble with 1S, it assumes that shipwreck can be made to go away with minimum trouble. If it spawns a barb ship - then all our coves go away. If it spawns a barb Stygian (can that happen in an OO banned game?) then so does our capital

[Man Behind the Mask]

My very amateur inclination on first sight was settle in place and fishing first. However, I completely agree that sandbox is the best plan, and I think it’s good that Mardoc has set a target. What do you want to do about settling more cities?

My inclination has two prompts: fishing unlocks improvement for three tiles, rather than one at a time (I’m not counting a plains farm as “improved”; and fishing will do more for commerce which means that the other things come faster. However, I feel the big counterbalance comes down to foodhammers for one worker early, versus hammers for at least 3 workboats and then you still need a worker later on.

Quick thought that came to mind: no river means no Dereptus at the capital. Need to keep an eye out for a riverside commerce site somewhere.

And a final alternative so that Mardoc’s head really spins: send the scout investigating E-SE (hoping for a better city site) and then into the distance, leaving the city borders to pop the hut in a couple of turns if we still settle in place (but definitely settle before popping the hut )