Strategic directions - long-term planning

[kjn]

I agree with both sides here.

Libraries aren't fun to pop borders with. But Writing is a quick and easy tech target for us post-AH (especially if we can get plenty of overflow from AH, which I think we got in the sims - we'll get 1.4 * 1.4 or effectively 1.96 in research bonus on the overflow).

But to me the value of Writing isn't to use Libraries to pop borders - it's to get a quick Academy. I think MM is a good candidate for our first library and GP. It's close to AO, we can get it to size 4/5 easily, there is a forest to chop into the library on T50, and we can either whip or slowbuild with mines. Or we can use AO itself.

I think we should keep an open mind on researching IW relatively soon, if we have copper or horses up close by the cow and the jungled banana. Farmed banana and cow would give +5F, and we can easily add another farm by the river. We'll have to play the map there.

One thing to keep in mind is that if we focus on AO as a super-research center, we need to get a few production ciities going relatively quickly. MM can probably serve as one, but I'd like to get another one or two as well, especially if we are to run specialists in MM.

[scooter]

One more thing:

Don't forget that an obelisk still takes 10 turns to pop borders one tile at a time, and is almost completely useless for the rest of the game after that.

In fairness though, a Library still takes 5 turns to pop, and it's so much more expensive that the Obelisk cheapness means it finishes quicker, so the actual time difference between them in popping borders is a wash, not to mention the opportunity cost of starting on the next building quicker.

I don't like Monuments either, but I think you're underselling the growth curve costs of getting a Library in place in every city.

[novice]

But Writing is a quick and easy tech target for us post-AH (especially if we can get plenty of overflow from AH, which I think we got in the sims - we'll get 1.4 * 1.4 or effectively 1.96 in research bonus on the overflow).

It doesn't work like that, the previous multiplier is divided back out from the overflow.

Tech path after AH depends on our dotmap and what our C&D tells us.

[ssmagus]

I agree with kjn on this.
A chopped library into a GS for a academy is pretty much the strongest thing we can do to snowball ahead.
We would go down and get Mono when we get the setter for our third or fourth city is moving, If the timings work out.
A chop into a library isn't hard for most of the nearby setting spots.

[SevenSpirits]

EDIT: Didn't read closely enough. Seven, you want us to research Monarchy too before Writing? Now it's 963 effective beakers against 154 for Writing. Six times the cost. I feel like that is a very poor choice of research priorities.

Yes, because I don't want to build libraries anyway! I don't think multiplier buildings are worth it at such a low happiness cap.

Faster academy is still potentially a good reason to go for writing first. This depends on how fast we expect our teching speed to be, and on the availability of strong additional city sites. It's not hard to imagine a writing first plan with a fast academy being a better option depending on conditions. However, libraries are expensive, and running scientists is expensive, and if we go for this fast of an academy it's a fact that we will fall behind the ideal rate of expansion. I'm claiming that the library + academy isn't worth much when our capital is stuck at such low population, and that we should seek to get more population first.

Remember we are not creative nor philosophical, two traits which make a fast academy cheaper; nor are we organized, which tends to make it more effective due to higher research rate. Instead we are financial which casts a strong vote for simply getting up as many citizens as possible, and expansive which again favors workers/settlers/pop.

[kjn]

@novice: you're correct - I hadn't tested things enough.

[Lewwyn]

I'm in favor of Writing first. Building a Lib and run 2 scis to grab an early academy.

[kjn]

I'm all for an early academy, but we need to not only consider the tech, but when and where we can build the library. After all, the cost of library and academy can probably be estimated as at least two, probably three settlers.

Mysticism would allow us greater freedom in placing our copper- or horse-claiming city. Fishing is needed if we go for the Jesus city (especially if there is copper or horses there, not that I think it's likely).

But the main question about the library is really where to build it, and I can't shake the feeling that we should do it right in Adventure One.

If we settle the Jesus city, it can work the corn (and the fish). MM can work the deer. Meanwhile, at size 6, AO can work four cottages while still running two scientists. We can build the library in seven or eight turns by working three mines, even without chops or whips. Whipping the library isn't that good a deal anyway, since we'd whip away the very population that we want to turn into scientists, and then have to wait out the whip anger.

Then we turn MM into a worker pump (corn, deer, plains hills mines) and the Jesus city to a settler pump. It also means that we only need to build one library early game, since AO is the only one of our cities that can really take advantage of the research bonus. Well, Red dot in the south can use a library, but it'd take ages to get it built.

Ie, I think we should plan our GS run to begin once we have settled the Jesus city (which I think should be our third or fourth one). If the Jesus city is number three, then we do Fishing and Writing in some order, and begin our Academy run from T48-50 or so. If the Jesus city is number four, then we have another 8 to 10 turns to tech. That should be enough to pick up Mysticism and either Meditation or Polytheism.

[mostly_harmless]

Jesus city???

[kjn]

Enough corn and fish to feed the masses of settlers soon to go out and spread the word.

(And now I want to go out and find a city location with five grains and three fishes.)