(March 5th, 2013, 13:01)Serdoa Wrote: As for events I agree as well with you, but as they can't be disabled as far as I know without breaking the game we just have to live with them. I think Sareln changed some of those giving you a GA to just give you gold but I am not sure.
Allegedly, Sareln has split them into events required for game mechanics, and events for flavor. The latter can be disabled.
(March 5th, 2013, 13:04)Serdoa Wrote: Not sure what compact enforced does (simply no summoning of those?). But I am fine with no human takeover for certain. I wouldn't mind so much if you can decide to take them and in general vassal them (I think Basium is automatically vassaled to their summoner right?). But it might simply be easier not to have them in the game at all.
I'm not a big fan of Hyborem and Basium, but I believe Hyborem is partly meant as a nerf to Ashen Veil, which is probably too good if you don't have to worry about hell terrain. I think I'd rather have compact enforced than have to deal with them, though.
I can ded lurk you ichabod.
Suggestion: instead of a.worker, try a cebtaur slave instead.
By having a slave with the racial promo centaur, you allow a worker first to still be a relevant option, avoid overly penalizing barb civs/basing early game overly on techs, and generally introduce a different mechanic by having the equivalent of a self hasting slave to allow for straight moving on to forests and chopping etc.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Starting with a worker requires starting with more techs. otherwise, only Agriculture civs are viable and that's really bad. Even a slave, with the lower work rate, already makes a big difference. Having a corn farm at turn 7 is insanely more powerful than having it at turn 15.
More seriously, there are some questions I need answers to, because they tend to depend on what people enjoy. Most of them are things that are fair no matter which you pick, but will greatly affect the style of game regardless. If you guys don't weigh in, I'll pick whatever I'd enjoy most, but ultimately the map should be a backdrop for your game, rather than a showcase for my skillz.
Wrap: You seem to be coming down on either cylindrical or toroid, adjusting difficulty down if toroid.
Size: Probably best to define this in terms of tiles/player, or cities/player, although official size matters too for Kurios. This affects the era in which most of your fighting will occur.
Water: Pangaea? Lakes? Tiny Islands? Hardly any?
Lushness: Resource density, grass/plains ratio, desert/tundra amounts, etc. People generally prefer lusher maps, I've found, but I do want to include enough plains to make Aristocracy not the obvious only choice.
FFH specifics? Can I use marsh, ancient forest, scrubs, lairs, huts, etc? Thoughts on Unique Features? What about pre-improved tiles, typed mana, etc? Generally sounds like you'd be ok with the minor stuff like marsh and ancient forests, but would want me to stay away from the others.
Natural vs. artificial: thoughts on scripts like Donut?
Special terrain for special civs: do I give elves forest, Lanun coast, Illians snow? Or just ignore that and let people get all have about the same? May I ban a civ, after making the map, if I think they'd be OP, or should I instead try to balance it after you pick? Or neither, and let a clever pick get a T0 advantage?
I kind of prefer picking before the map is set up, so that everything can be balanced well. If that doesn't happen then I just prefer banning civs if they would be overpowered. I don't really want to see starts before picking either.
You know what's weird? The vanilla Civ4 FFH mod didn't have events be used those weren't introduced until BTS, but still handled the Armageddon Counter and Perp's trait switching fine.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(March 5th, 2013, 18:42)Mardoc Wrote: Fun but fair. Please define 'fun', Serdoa .
Obviously me winning would be fun for me - go use your mad skillz and make it happen
Quote:Wrap: You seem to be coming down on either cylindrical or toroid, adjusting difficulty down if toroid.
I think the greater consensus seems to be for cylindrical with the clear notion that if you think your map works better on toroid than that would be fine with us too. And yes, adjusting difficulty down if toroid by one step seems clear consensus.
Quote:Size: Probably best to define this in terms of tiles/player, or cities/player, although official size matters too for Kurios. This affects the era in which most of your fighting will occur.
250 tiles per player would be my choice as several people seem to rather want a larger map and I personally would rather have a larger than a smaller map. Map size setting probably Standard I'd say with 4-5 players. That should keep Kurios balanced.
I personally would vote for Lakes. Water is fun, but naval combat is nearly non-existant in FFH and with one civ specializing in water-maps (Lanun) it is imo essential for balance not to have too much of it.
Quote:Lushness: Resource density, grass/plains ratio, desert/tundra amounts, etc. People generally prefer lusher maps, I've found, but I do want to include enough plains to make Aristocracy not the obvious only choice.
Lush. Settling should not be a chore (as in "everything here is shit") but there don't need to be only grasslands and 2 food-resources or more per city.
Quote:FFH specifics? Can I use marsh, ancient forest, scrubs, lairs, huts, etc? Thoughts on Unique Features? What about pre-improved tiles, typed mana, etc? Generally sounds like you'd be ok with the minor stuff like marsh and ancient forests, but would want me to stay away from the others.
Can scrubs be get rid of without a certain late game tech? If yes I don't mind. If no, than please not. Same for marsh but I think thats with BW to be improved yes? Typed mana I don't care, but I think here comes the "no gimmicks" point into play.
Quote:Natural vs. artificial: thoughts on scripts like Donut?
I'm fine with any script. Natural has its own issues, especially about balance (someone being kinda isolated etc.) though.
Quote:Special terrain for special civs: do I give elves forest, Lanun coast, Illians snow? Or just ignore that and let people get all have about the same? May I ban a civ, after making the map, if I think they'd be OP, or should I instead try to balance it after you pick? Or neither, and let a clever pick get a T0 advantage?
No special terrain for special civs. In BTS thats easier because everyone has equal chances. But in FFH if you give Elves Ancient Forests, how do you counter that for the others to stay fair? That just opens up multitude of issues imo. And yes, I'm fine with you banning a civ (seems only Lanun every time anyway).
Quote:Seeing starts before picking?
Yes.
(March 5th, 2013, 19:22)gtAngel Wrote: I kind of prefer picking before the map is set up, so that everything can be balanced well. If that doesn't happen then I just prefer banning civs if they would be overpowered. I don't really want to see starts before picking either.
Personal opinion incoming: I don't think that building a map AFTER we have picked can ever lead to a balanced map. The mapmaker knows for which civs he makes the start and imo that does not lead to balance but to the mapmaker deciding that someone is a strong enough player that he doesn't need as good terrain as someone else or that he has to change a start and get rid of some grassland because someone picked Calabim. I don't think the mapmaker has any chance not to get accused of having the map rigged in someones favor in that situation.
As for seeing the starts before picking: It does help give you an idea what you can expect but is certainly less helpful than in BTS because in BTS it does come down to starting techs and leader, the civ itself is rather unimportant (except for India and maybe Inca). In FFH of course the civ defines your whole playstyle and you probably won't pick a different civ, just because the start is more suited to Lanun than to Kurios.
I agree with Serdoa on almost all the points. I'd just prefer a natural looking map than an artificial one.
I also prefer Lakes map, like the most recent ones in BTS PBEMs. If not that, pangae with islands is also nice. I don't mind having civs banned by the mapmaker too.
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Regarding disabling events: if we want to disable the non-core events, we'll need to wait for EitB 10. After thinking about, i'd rather start the game when possible rather than waiting. What do you think?
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