I'm not really seeing the qualifications for a Mary Sue either. Her judgement is poor, she barely wins a duel against a character who is A: crippled and B: bleeding out, and she only survives the film because other characters go out of their way to save her on multiple occasions.
I mean, do you also dislike James Bond, Captain America, Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter or any of the TNG or ST:OS leads? They all posses a startling array of talents and are characters comprised of no more than 10% flaws. Having deeply-flawed, semi-competent protagonists is atypical for the vast majority of non-comedic works, probably because that's an excellent way to alienate an audience, even (especially!) with ensemble casts.
not sure why the thread was started with them TBH, but it pays to be consistent sometimes.
@ Jowy:
I have come to intensely dislike trailers in a lot of cases, and was very glad to have avoided them in this case as it allowed me to preserve the sense of wonder.
@Commodore:
your cynicism surprises me. Also, you've hit on exactly the problem I have with the MI movies; the TV show was always an ensemble piece, and the movies are worse off for not being.
Also:
Why are the first 2 called "Death Star" when they are the size of a moon and kill planets...?
I actually was pleased with the clumsy, inelegant saber combat in Force Awakens. Rey and Fin never had any opportunity to learn the intricacies of saber dueling, while Kylo was badly wounded, probably insane and implied to have never been particularly skilled to begin with. It hearkened back to the original trilogy, where Luke and Vader largely resorted to alternatively ungracefully hacking away at each other and retreating. The overly stylized prequel fights served as a substitute for characterization.
Your take is realistic. However, in a sic-fi / FANTASY MOVIE (and it is as much a fantasy movie as it is a sc-fi), what with sword fights as the supreme method of killing and defense you have better show some fancy sword plays. And that's not even factoring in the FORCE yet. I mean, is the force only good for yanking a light sabre off the snow? I am thinking the earth should move with every steps and cyclones with every swipe of the sabre. But at least show us (establish) how awesome this new jedi master is before he can be excused for being hurt by a random and got defeated by a noob. As movies go, I expect more than that from a master, especially a jedi.
I actually was pleased with the clumsy, inelegant saber combat in Force Awakens. Rey and Fin never had any opportunity to learn the intricacies of saber dueling, while Kylo was badly wounded, probably insane and implied to have never been particularly skilled to begin with. It hearkened back to the original trilogy, where Luke and Vader largely resorted to alternatively ungracefully hacking away at each other and retreating. The overly stylized prequel fights served as a substitute for characterization.
Your take is realistic. However, in a sic-fi / FANTASY MOVIE (and it is as much a fantasy movie as it is a sc-fi), what with sword fights as the supreme method of killing and defense you have better show some fancy sword plays. And that's not even factoring in the FORCE yet. I mean, is the force only good for yanking a light sabre off the snow? I am thinking the earth should move with every steps and cyclones with every swipe of the sabre. But at least show us (establish) how awesome this new jedi master is before he can be excused for being hurt by a random and got defeated by a noob. As movies go, I expect more than that from a master, especially a jedi.
that's the whole bloody point, Kylo is NOT a master, he's a kid who slaughtered other kids and who is still young enough that he's throwing destructive temper tantrums.
My thought is the next move will show both him and Rey training, and when they duel again in the last movie they will have much better combat style.
I actually was pleased with the clumsy, inelegant saber combat in Force Awakens. Rey and Fin never had any opportunity to learn the intricacies of saber dueling, while Kylo was badly wounded, probably insane and implied to have never been particularly skilled to begin with. It hearkened back to the original trilogy, where Luke and Vader largely resorted to alternatively ungracefully hacking away at each other and retreating. The overly stylized prequel fights served as a substitute for characterization.
Your take is realistic. However, in a sic-fi / FANTASY MOVIE (and it is as much a fantasy movie as it is a sc-fi), what with sword fights as the supreme method of killing and defense you have better show some fancy sword plays. And that's not even factoring in the FORCE yet. I mean, is the force only good for yanking a light sabre off the snow? I am thinking the earth should move with every steps and cyclones with every swipe of the sabre. But at least show us (establish) how awesome this new jedi master is before he can be excused for being hurt by a random and got defeated by a noob. As movies go, I expect more than that from a master, especially a jedi.
that's the whole bloody point, Kylo is NOT a master, he's a kid who slaughtered other kids and who is still young enough that he's throwing destructive temper tantrums.
My thought is the next move will show both him and Rey training, and when they duel again in the last movie they will have much better combat style.
NOODS! You mean I paid good money to see a bunch of noods get it on!?
That would explain the unimpressive fight scenes of this episode, but I am saying I have not seen a good fight from any of the series. When Yoda fought Dooku it had the right setup, but it still lacked proper direction and choreography thus it was not exciting nor impressive. Go ahead and watch it (or whichever you think is the best Star Wars fight scene) on youtube, then youtube "best fight scenes" and you will see it really pales in production and imagination, despite having 10s or hundreds times the budget. And here is a random pick from the search. All this action in one movie.
I am saying, being Jedi with the Force and light sabre and whatnot and being fantasy movies, give the producers unlimited artistic license to exercise their imagination. It is a shame.
I am not trying to diss Star Wars. I want to like it, because I am a sci-fi fantasy fan, and because I "have to" watch these movies for the cinematography (I go for the scenery so to speak) anyway.
Maybe I wasn't paying attention, is it for sure Kylo is a nood? Seems wrong for a nood to be the commander of the First Order, and the leader to the Knights of Ren...
I don't think he is the commander of the First Order, KoP. That would be Snoke or whatever Gollum's name was. Or if you mean the commander just in the base, that would be Phasma for the stormtroopers and the ranty British guy for the entire station.
Kylo is supposed to be extremely dangerous, and he's obviously high up enough in the First Order hierarchy that only one guy on Star Killer base is willing to contest him openly, but he's not a combat master. He's not highly trained (if at all) and it's made rather explicit that he lacks Anakin's natural talent.
Honestly, I don't think Star Wars has ever really delivered the kind of fight scenes you want, outside of games and other supplementary materials. Even the awful, interminable CGI battles in the prequels didn't feature particularly impressive fight choreography. It's just not that kind of franchise. The Jedi are supposed to be more than just really elite ninja.
I did think that the movie was quite good for the first half before they went to the space bar in space. I guess that's basically every JJ Abrams movie so it has to have a good setup for not much useful payoff. It happened in Cloverfield, the second Star Trek movie too. :\
I did rather enjoy the the light saber fight as it was on the more realistic/messy fights.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Finally went and saw it and then when I visited my parents they wanted to go see it, so I ended up seeing it twice.
As for seeing it twice, it probably won't surprise people much to say that there wasn't a lot to glean in the second viewing that wasn't obvious in the first. The one detail I missed was in the Kylo Ren - Rey interrogation scene where Ren is first trying to break Rey and describing her thoughts of loneliness: an island on an ocean, and then that just happens to be where Luke is found at the end of the movie. I don't get the feeling that either of those characters realized how significant that image was.
I agree with a lot of what Brick has said here, that the big bad villain isn't the same big bad villain that we've been used to in previous Star Wars. To add another bit of evidence that hasn't been mentioned: just look at all the times General Hux and him fight and who ends up winning those fights? We don't get the same kind of Vader killing off generals that we got in the original trilogy, if anything it shows that Hux is the more alpha of the two. And with Hux's speech right before starkiller base is fired, I'd say he's the better villain -- but again, I think more that the movie is trying to emphasize how novice Ren is. I kind of like that it's a new twist; I really hope it means we get to see some Kylo Ren development as the series goes on, as others have mentioned before.
I think the biggest flaw in the movie is that they tried to play it too safe. They probably should have broken from the nostalgia about halfway through the movie, but after the disaster of the prequels they probably wanted to make sure they made a solid movie first and then took risks later. However, Episode VIII needs to be allowed to stand on it's own two feet. Don't need to stifle this child with coddling just because the last one turned out so awful.
