[SPOILERS] Team SsS

[scooter]

One additional comment - I think the biggest thing that is causing me to sympathize with India here is the fact that I'm not sure what they could've done differently to avoid this, as they are required to move in the first half already because of the turnsplit with Maya...

[Sandover]

I'm not going to make my mind up on this one until I get to read DJ's thread and can see with my own eyes their unofficial version of the events that transpired. However, I am definitly more inclined to think that Exploit was the one at fault than I was prior to waking up this morning.

The way I see it we have three options moving forward.

1) Stick to our committment to Heracles and fight it out as best as we can, either dying honorably in the process or surviving long enough for the Hydra to crack.

2) Renounce our prior decision and plea for membership with the Hydra, hoping that they won't turn on us once Spraetorians are no longer a threat.

3) Declare neutrality and try to cut a deal with the Hydra where they give us their techs in exchange for us not attacking them, hoping that an alliance shift will happen once we are no longer a danger to them.

This is all assuming that Tech goes down, which I'm inclined to think will happen due to Exploit's forceful reaction. Personally I prefer 1, though I'm happy to discuss our options.

[scooter]

Honestly I'm sort of apt to go for #2 given we wouldn't really be betraying anyone given that Exploit was really our only ally so far. Send off a message to India and Portugal saying that in light of Exploit's recent reactions, we are much less apt to believe his story from earlier, and he was the only thing that kept us from joining Hydra. Let them know we're not going to beg to join and we are more than willing to 'go down fighting' if you will, but if they would even consider letting us in we would be willing to do it at this point. Maybe even go so far as to offer to prove our good intentions by whatever means necessary.

Pretty much let them know we've kept out of the Hydra because we were loyal to Exploit and only Exploit because he was very friendly to us (and always has been), but with him exiting the game, especially the way he's going about it, we are now more than willing to join the Hydra so that we can thin out the competition a bit.

This is what might talk them into it. I think they've got what, 9 members right now? Say they let us in - that's 10, and given the fact that Korea is dead, Sumeria is as good as dead, and Inca practically killed themselves by bungling their rush, that leaves only 4 players. It would not be very long before one or two more died off, which means the Hydra would quickly fragment. We would have to quickly come up with a few friends longer-term, but if we are acting in the interest of "living to fight another day" - this is probably our best bet...

After saying all that though, I would be more than okay with sticking it out and doing as much damage as we can do before being taken down. I think #1 would be punching our ticket out of this game, it would just be a matter of how long we could survive. #2 might actually give us a chance in the long-term picture...

[scooter]

If you want I can throw together a draft of the kind of message I'm talking about and we can decide from there... I'll be back on here in an hour or so, so if you're still around let me know what you think and we can go from there.

[scooter]

Actually scratch that, I'll be around for an hour or so. Sandover if you'll be around, the easiest way to discuss this might just be direct chat. I just popped onto the team account and added my personal account as a contact, so pop on there and send me a message and we'll figure this out...

[Sandover]

We've talked about how we're going to deal with this situation. Scooter will post a draft later on that should give you lurkers a good idea of what we're looking to do if Sumeria goes down.

[scooter]

Okay, here's the draft I put together. It's really lengthy, but I think all of it is worthwhile to say. Let me know what you think Sandover, and if you think it should be shortened some let me know what looks like it could get cut. Incoming wall of text:

India and Portugal,

These last two turns have been very interesting, and Sandover and I definitely did not expect to wake up to a massive rules dispute this morning! We've talked it over, and we've been extremely disappointed in the way Exploit has handled this. India, we had a conversation with you awhile back where we admitted we were a little unsure on the "who's right" on your clash with Exploit earlier. Sandover and I both admitted in our thread that there might have been some truth in what you were saying, but we had formed an alliance with Exploit earlier than that, and were committed to backing him unless we were 100% convinced that he was not being truthful with us. It was your words against his, so I hope you understand why we would back an ally in that case.

That said, we did promise you guys that if we ever reconsidered that - we would tell you. Given how Exploit handled things here, Sandover and I are both very doubtful that he was actually in the right on the first issue. We will never know for sure until the game is over, but regardless we'd like to, at the very least, let you know that we acknowledge that you probably were right. He seemed to have absolutely no interest in a compromise, and we couldn't help but think he might've done same thing to you. So if this email accomplishes nothing else, at least know that, like we said we would, we are admitting that we might have chosen the wrong side on that issue .


Now taking a step back from that, I know we've had quite a bit of discussion with you guys about joining the Hydra, but we said no. Here was the only two reasons we said no:

1. We were committed to honoring deals with Exploit, and joining the CAN group would mean backstabbing him, and we don't do that to allies.
2. We strongly disliked the tech alliance structure - we would prefer it see it fizzle out into groups of 3-4 or so. Almost all of the players who fall in the "CANT" group are in the same boat - they hate the mega-alliance thing - so we had more in common with them. CANT's only goal was to break up the Hydra, and then break up into smaller groups. To us it seemed like the quickest way to break up the mega-alliance structure into something more enjoyable for everyone.

Sandover and I had a lengthy exchange today, and we've concluded that both of those reasons are no longer valid. Exploit has quit the game (something we find pretty low and dishonorable), and we've concluded the quickest way to break up the mega-alliance may actually be to join it, if the offer is still on the table. If you'll bear with me on the length of this message, let me be more specific:

We do realize you may very well tell us to "get lost" since we turned you guys down at first, and if you do that then that's pretty understandable. From having talked to both of your teams though, we got the impression that both of you guys didn't really care for the whole mega-alliance, and were only in it to eliminate some competition more or less. If you allow us to join, we can probably help do that sooner rather than later... Let's just say Sumeria falls, and given the way Exploit talked we get the impression that's going to happen. We're then looking at a 9v6, and one of those is Inca who managed to badly bungle their rush on Ruff, rendering them nearly useless for the time being. If we were to flip over to your side, we could very rapidly leave the other 4 1/2 in the dust, allowing us to disintegrate the mega-alliance even quicker. Might even be worth considering to bring in another member of the CANT group if you guys find it strategically worthwhile, but we don't care either way because we haven't had tons of contact with the rest of the group.

If you doubt our honest intentions (understandable), we are more than willing to prove them to you if necessary. We are not at all keen on NAP's, but if that's necessary to prove ourselves for the time being then that is fine too. We are not really desperate at this point because regardless of whether or not Sumeria falls, alphabet *will* make it out before they fall, and we will get it that way. So we could stick with them if needed and drag out "alliance wars" even longer, but if you guys really want to dump this 10-civ alliance thing sooner rather than later, then we would love to help with that.

Once again I am sorry for the length, but there was a lot to say, so hopefully I got it all out. We're looking forward to hearing from you soon, whether you bring a yes or a no. Either way, thanks for reading if you got this far, and good luck through the rest of the game.

Thanks,
scooter - Team SsS

[Sandover]

India and Portugal,

These last two turns have been very interesting, and Sandover and I definitely did not expect to wake up to a massive rules dispute this morning! We've talked it over, and we've been extremely disappointed in the way Exploit has handled this. India, we had a conversation with you awhile back where we admitted we were a little unsure on the "who's right" on your clash with Exploit earlier. Sandover and I both admitted in our thread that there might have been some truth in what you were saying, but we had formed an alliance with Exploit earlier than that, and were committed to backing him unless we were 100% convinced that he was not being truthful with us. It was your words against his, so I hope you understand why we would back an ally in that case.

I think we should leave our connection to Exploit out of the message for two reasons;
- It is not why we sided with Exploit on the settling incident. His version of the story was simply more convincing.
- It is not necessary to mention. I think I did a pretty good of keeping it secret so they do not need to know about it.

That said, we did promise you guys that if we ever reconsidered that - we would tell you. Given how Exploit handled things here, Sandover and I are both very doubtful that he was actually in the right on the first issue. We will never know for sure until the game is over, but regardless we'd like to, at the very least, let you know that we acknowledge that you probably were right. He seemed to have absolutely no interest in a compromise, and we couldn't help but think he might've done same thing to you. So if this email accomplishes nothing else, at least know that, like we said we would, we are admitting that we might have chosen the wrong side on that issue .

I like this part.

Now taking a step back from that, I know we've had quite a bit of discussion with you guys about joining the Hydra, but we said no. Here was the only two reasons we said no:

1. We were committed to honoring deals with Exploit, and joining the CAN group would mean backstabbing him, and we don't do that to allies.
2. We strongly disliked the tech alliance structure - we would prefer it see it fizzle out into groups of 3-4 or so. Almost all of the players who fall in the "CANT" group are in the same boat - they hate the mega-alliance thing - so we had more in common with them. CANT's only goal was to break up the Hydra, and then break up into smaller groups. To us it seemed like the quickest way to break up the mega-alliance structure into something more enjoyable for everyone.

Sandover and I had a lengthy exchange today, and we've concluded that both of those reasons are no longer valid. Exploit has quit the game (something we find pretty low and dishonorable), and we've concluded the quickest way to break up the mega-alliance may actually be to join it, if the offer is still on the table. If you'll bear with me on the length of this message, let me be more specific:

Once again, lets leave our deals with Exploit out of this? I think it makes more sense to focus on our reviewing the Tech/DJ conflict and considering a counter-alliance that goes down to 6 civs a futile endevour, especially as it puts us in a 1 vs 2.

We do realize you may very well tell us to "get lost" since we turned you guys down at first, and if you do that then that's pretty understandable. From having talked to both of your teams though, we got the impression that both of you guys didn't really care for the whole mega-alliance, and were only in it to eliminate some competition more or less. If you allow us to join, we can probably help do that sooner rather than later... Let's just say Sumeria falls, and given the way Exploit talked we get the impression that's going to happen. We're then looking at a 9v6, and one of those is Inca who managed to badly bungle their rush on Ruff, rendering them nearly useless for the time being. If we were to flip over to your side, we could very rapidly leave the other 4 1/2 in the dust, allowing us to disintegrate the mega-alliance even quicker. Might even be worth considering to bring in another member of the CANT group if you guys find it strategically worthwhile, but we don't care either way because we haven't had tons of contact with the rest of the group.

No complaints.

If you doubt our honest intentions (understandable), we are more than willing to prove them to you if necessary. We are not at all keen on NAP's, but if that's necessary to prove ourselves for the time being then that is fine too. We are not really desperate at this point because regardless of whether or not Sumeria falls, alphabet *will* make it out before they fall, and we will get it that way. So we could stick with them if needed and drag out "alliance wars" even longer, but if you guys really want to dump this 10-civ alliance thing sooner rather than later, then we would love to help with that.

I don't think they know Sumeria is the Alphabet supplier? Maybe change the wording a bit, talking about "initial round of trades" rather than Alphabet per se? Also, the bolded phrase makes us sound way too eager imo.

Once again I am sorry for the length, but there was a lot to say, so hopefully I got it all out. We're looking forward to hearing from you soon, whether you bring a yes or a no. Either way, thanks for reading if you got this far, and good luck through the rest of the game.

Thanks,
scooter - Team SsS

Nice finish.

[Sandover]

I think the general tone of your message is perfect, so I hope you can make some edits without losing it.

I'm off to bed now. Laters.

[scooter]

Thanks for the feedback, I like the changes, and it never occurred to me that we could easily never let anyone know about our alliance with Exploit. That definitely seems like the way to go... so I went ahead and made the changes you suggested. I went ahead and sent it as I'm like 95% sure you'll have no problems with it.

India and Portugal,

These last two turns have been very interesting, and Sandover and I definitely did not expect to wake up to a massive rules dispute this morning! We've talked it over, and we've been extremely disappointed in the way Exploit has handled this. India, we had a conversation with you awhile back where we admitted we were a little unsure on the "who's right" on your clash with Exploit earlier. Sandover and I both admitted in our thread that there might have been some truth in what you were saying, but from the limited knowledge we had at the time, Exploit's story seemed slightly more convincing.

That said, we did promise you guys that if we ever reconsidered that - we would tell you. Given how Exploit handled things here, Sandover and I are both very doubtful that he was actually in the right on the first issue. We will never know for sure until the game is over, but regardless we'd like to, at the very least, let you know that we acknowledge that you probably were right. He seemed to have absolutely no interest in a compromise, and we couldn't help but think he might've done same thing to you. So if this email accomplishes nothing else, at least know that, like we said we would, we are admitting that we might have chosen the wrong side on that issue .


Now taking a step back from that, I know we've had quite a bit of discussion with you guys about joining the Hydra, but we said no. Here was the only two reasons we said no:

1. We were slightly unsure on what exactly transpired in the early conflict between India and Exploit, and IF what Exploit said was true (which we are doubting now), then we would not want to work with you guys.
2. We strongly disliked the tech alliance structure - we would prefer it see it fizzle out into groups of 3-4 or so. Almost all of the players who fall in the "CANT" group are in the same boat - they hate the mega-alliance thing - so we had more in common with them. CANT's only goal was to break up the Hydra, and then break up into smaller groups. To us it seemed like the quickest way to break up the mega-alliance structure into something more enjoyable for everyone.

Sandover and I had a lengthy exchange today, and we've concluded that both of those reasons are no longer valid. Exploit has quit the game (something we find pretty low and dishonorable), and we've concluded the quickest way to break up the mega-alliance may actually be to join it, if the offer is still on the table. If you'll bear with me on the length of this message, let me be more specific:

We do realize you may very well tell us to "get lost" since we turned you guys down at first, and if you do that then that's pretty understandable. From having talked to both of your teams though, we got the impression that both of you guys didn't really care for the whole mega-alliance, and were only in it to eliminate some competition more or less. If you allow us to join, we can probably help do that sooner rather than later... Let's just say Sumeria falls, and given the way Exploit talked we get the impression that's going to happen. We're then looking at a 9v6, and one of those is Inca who managed to badly bungle their rush on Ruff, rendering them nearly useless for the time being. If we were to flip over to your side, we could very rapidly leave the other 4 1/2 in the dust, allowing us to disintegrate the mega-alliance even quicker. Might even be worth considering to bring in another member of the CANT group if you guys find it strategically worthwhile, but we don't care either way because we haven't had tons of contact with the rest of the group.

If you doubt our honest intentions (understandable), we are more than willing to prove them to you if necessary. We are not at all keen on NAP's, but if that's necessary to prove ourselves for the time being then that is fine too. We are not really desperate at this point because regardless of whether or not Sumeria falls, we *can* get alphabet from a civ not in CAN. So we could stick with them if needed and drag out "alliance wars" even longer, but if you guys really want to cut down on this 10-civ alliance thing sooner rather than later, we believe we might be able to help accelerate that by joining.

Once again I am sorry for the length, but there was a lot to say, so hopefully I got it all out. We're looking forward to hearing from you soon, whether you bring a yes or a no. Either way, thanks for reading if you got this far, and good luck through the rest of the game.

Thanks,
scooter - Team SsS

Let's hope we didn't fall into that 5% because that message is a doozy .