[SPOILERS] Team SsS

[scooter]

Incoming wall of text! I'll make a summary at the bottom for those who don't like chat logs, so if you're as strange as me, enjoy . Here's the conversation between Sandover and Mukha. I popped on and was messaging Sandover at the tail end of the conversation, and then we spent about an hour after that analyzing what Mukha said. Here we go:

2:40 PM Sandover: hey
2:41 PM Mukha: hi
Sandover: I suppose you have called my bluff about having spearmen by now?
Mukha: lol what?
2:42 PM umm, well it's obvious in game
what techs everyone actually has
since we have alphabet
Sandover: yeah I know
2:43 PM was trying to sound confident in a clever way but realised later that I came out as being dishonest
sorry about that
Mukha: heh it's cool really
thought mb he's using a mod?
2:44 PM i'm actually still discussing latest email with dantski
Sandover: should be visible with tech trading enabled
Mukha: this turn has been incredibly hectic
with exploit leaving
no doubt you're finding the same
Sandover: indeed
2:45 PM we realised we were wrong to put the blame on dj
gonna give up that whole "death to dj" thing we've been doing
2:46 PM Mukha: heh
we honestly didn't buy the march through exploit lands to attack him
unless you really really hated him
they are so far away
Sandover: I guess I roleplay too much
2:47 PM just wanted to get a feel for what your relations were like
either way, any chance you wont carry out the plan to go 2 vs 1 on us?
2:48 PM Mukha: you'll have to send me the details of that plan heh, because if I'm part of the 2 someone else is going to be pretty disappointed
2:49 PM Sandover: I find it hard to believe that dj wants to send their chariots at us without your support
Mukha: wow, I don't know who sent you that? was that an exploit special before he left?
2:50 PM Sandover: naw, it's a post-exploit thing
2:52 PM Mukha: not sure what to say
i thought we spoke at length about our whips
I really didn't and still don't want to talk about what they're for
2:53 PM honestly you have IW now, we would like to work with praes
apparently as a fin/cre leader we are filling the military role of CAN?
we would like to pass the baton
2:54 PM Sandover: so you still have no intention what so ever to attack us?
Mukha: no lol
listen I need to discuss your email with dantski and others
Sandover: it doesn't match with what dj is doing, hence my concern
Mukha: it really came out of left field
2:55 PM well both did
Sandover: yeah I know
Mukha: so I probably should do that before saying that we can offer you anything, I think you got india's email
and he appears happy with it
or at least ambivalent
2:58 PM the way I see this game has always played out
wait let me start that sentence again
you seem to fear that CAN will be a lasting thing
it's always destined to break up
can't have 9 winners or however many we have
and as at the start of the game
2:59 PM it's going to be a lot of diplo needed to make sure you're with the strongest group
Sandover: my one fear right now is a 1 vs 2 against a bunch of chariots
Mukha: but there will be more large groups just as a subset of CAN
Sandover: dj is planning something and if you aren't involved it simply doesn't make sense
Mukha: hmm
3:00 PM Sandover: gonna attack krill?
no, that cant be it
Mukha: nothing involved with you, and if someone is telling you they are planning an attack on you
i just can't believe that
it seems incredibly far fetched
Sandover: no one is telling me that, just reading between the lines
3:01 PM if it doesn't involve us... but you wouldn't hit krill already, right?
3:02 PM Mukha: no, you know I gave you way big of a hnt in an earlier email, that I shouldn't have, but it definitely doesn't involve india
well at least I thought so
3:03 PM and I simply can't believe that if they get peace with sumeria, that they would then think of sending them on to you
3:04 PM Sandover: there's something fishy going on
Mukha: totally
Sandover: and you're teasing me to death here
Mukha: i need to go away and think about this for a while
what lines were you reading between can i ask?
3:05 PM Sandover: hm
ok, I'll tell you
got a forwarded message from yaz containing a peace offer from dj
3:06 PM can you explain why they are so eager that he do not trade hunting around?
Mukha: they have a chariot army?
Sandover: the dots kinda connect into an attack on us
3:07 PM Mukha: yaz did tell me about this deal as well
3:08 PM i honestly don't see the reason for adding this hunting and alpha thing
i mean it does negate chariots a lot wherever they use them
well completely
3:09 PM but they would be negated anyway by the time they get anywhere
only people chariots are good vs is people without copper
3:12 PM it's also likely to scuttle any actual attempt at peace and a clean slate with yaz
yaz will honour all previous deals or be eliminated I think, or both
3:13 PM Sandover: so basically you're saying that there's no real sense in demanding it in a peace deal unless they are going to rush off somewhere with their chariots?
because that's pretty much how I interpret the situation
3:14 PM Mukha: well, i see no real reason period, except for sunrise, i guess he just sees people without hunting and wants to keep it that way
chariot rushes are absolutely huge in tbg MP league play
3:16 PM Sandover: guess I'll have to go thru the archives and find that hint you're referring to to make some sense of this
3:17 PM Mukha: heh
whoops ok, but, if you still want in with can
it would go along way with us if when you do realize
should be fairly obvious
3:18 PM that it stays a secret
Sandover: roger, though I'm not sure I'll even find it since we missed it the first time around
3:19 PM Mukha: ok but please just promise me now that it stays between us?
well i guess i can't ask you that
we aren't really allies yet i guess
3:20 PM but ok i'll let you read heh
Sandover: tell me right away and you have my word it wont reach the ears or eyes of any other civ, no matter what happens from here on
Mukha: and we'll try to see who we can convince in CAN
can't
really just can't do that
3:21 PM Sandover: you're killing me here!
Mukha: heh you try keeping a secret!
3:22 PM Sandover: all of this teams diplomacy goes by me so wouldn't be much of a challenge, but oh well, I'll just search for it then
3:23 PM Mukha: sorry
can we take anything else to CAN? like what you can do military wise
3:24 PM do to get rid of other threats that sort of thing?
i really hope your serious this time?
it makes me look bad to take this stuff to others
3:25 PM Sandover: if Sumeria goes down we're in a 6 vs 9 and 1 vs 2 on our front
3:26 PM while I'm fine with heroism, we need to be reasonable here
3:27 PM Mukha: heh ok if your borders are secure and you have inca and yaz left what would be your plans?
Sandover: well, our previous plan was "death to dj"
3:28 PM now we basically just want to get out of being in a 1 vs 2
Mukha: hmm
Sandover: while I'm sure we won't just be pushed over in such a situation, eventually it would be a futile fight
3:29 PM Mukha: i haven't even counted how many tiles it is from exploits second city
to you guys
my guess is a lot
3:30 PM Sandover: maybe 15 to ur capital
still
here's our situation
or well, based on what I know at least
3:31 PM we have a supposedly thight mini-alliance in our neighbourhood, with you, dj, dim and village green in it
yaz is crippled and might even get killed
that leaves us inca, exhasted from making a failed rush, as our only alternative for a friend
Mukha: hmm, i understand you probably have deals with incas
3:32 PM mb to provide IW but I can't imagine they could provide much in return
after driving themselves into the ground for an incredibly early rush of 1 movers
3:33 PM Sandover: I don't see a question mark, but I take it that you want to be enlightened
Mukha: just guessing out loud
3:34 PM Sandover: we have some sort of rough tech trading agreement established with the non-CAN civs we've met
based purely on the will to help each others
3:35 PM Mukha: yeah more out of common resistance cause I'm guessing
Sandover: good guess
3:37 PM my intuition tells me you're trustworthy, so I'm going to assume you aren't coming for us
but I'm still worried dj might
3:38 PM Mukha: so how comfortable do you feel breaking deals with incans?
i think it probably won't be disastrous to let them have some classical techs
i'm not sure what CAN would think
they can be ruthless in demanding all deals get canceled heh
3:40 PM Sandover: I'd say we aren't very comfortable at all breaking any sort of deals, is that an obvious no-go on the CAN's part?
3:41 PM Mukha: if we can get you in CAN then djs can't do anything
especially tech deals i think
3:42 PM Sandover: might be a problem then, I'd have to confer with scooter to be sure how we want to handle it but on a personal level I'm more of a "fight to death" than "break out of deals when it is convenient" kind of guy
3:43 PM Mukha: i know you're more worried about yourselves at the moment with important non-CAN members failing, but CAN would need to know what sort of assistance or plans you could put together vs others
ahh yeah heh
Sandover: well, our scouting is still limited
but everyone say there is a huge desert to our north
Mukha: yeah
3:44 PM 10-12 tiles worth
15% of the map it should be
did i send you a link to the probably map script?
probable
Sandover: so I believe that leaves inca as a potential target, unless you want us to rough up HRE or France?
no
but exploit mentioned a desert as well
3:46 PM Mukha: yeah there's a big deseert well it is crossable
heck of a surprise if you do hehe
3:47 PM incan lands for praes would be pretty much a gimme, but I'm not really sure what turn you could turn on them without feeling like complete bastards
don't know how close you are
err diplomatically that is
Sandover: we never said we wouldn't attack them
3:48 PM Mukha: never did find out about that whole aztec thing
Sandover: as you know we kinda dont like naps, and we dont have any binding membership agreement with CANT
3:49 PM but I would feel uncomfortable backing out of trade deals
Mukha: understood
3:50 PM ok let me speak to others then, we really need to get this sorted
this whole exploit thing has thrown everybody
honestly thought it was a to the death deal
3:52 PM i think there's some talk of next pb game being an always war no diplo game
no need to create an email account even
Sandover: if all of them, including Yaz despite the situation he is now in, honors their end of the trade I'd like to do so as well
that could be interesting
3:53 PM Mukha: hmm, ok
3:54 PM Sandover: scooter just popped in
we wonder if you're interested in a NAP?
Mukha: sure ok, dantski has gone to bed though and I definitely can't discuss that without him
3:55 PM but what would be terms though?
you know we actually feel same way about NAP as you guys
but if we're doing this NAP thing we would also want a RoP clause and no gifting units thing
that shit from pb2 was really low
3:56 PM Sandover: we won't disagree to that
3:57 PM Mukha: ok let me speak to dantski about NAP and others about CAN
and see what we can get, but can you give me something like praes vs incans t100
or something
3:58 PM Sandover: ok, I need to talk to my team some as well, regarding pulling out of trades and such
Mukha: unless you weren't planning to build praes
mb you really do like scouts
Sandover: t100? that's doable
Mukha: that's was just a number
but we just need something saleable
3:59 PM i mean atm what's in it for hre, ottos, aztecs
they would probably all like to see some payback, so having a little bit more land towards inca would help there
Sandover: hm
4:01 PM tbh wait with going to CAN again, I need to figure out what dj is up to before I can feel safe about giving estimates on our praet production, and I'd hate for you to get in trouble on our account
Mukha: ok
i really need to go now though
4:02 PM so could you email details?
of whatever you can share?
Sandover: I'll talk to scooter and cook something up for ya
Mukha: perhaps, as we have done with others we could also discuss a screenshot swap
those have been really helpful
4:03 PM Sandover: I thing there are more important issues at hand to focus on before going into that stuff
Mukha: ok, need to go
ok np
Sandover: right, sorry for taking up so much of your time!
Mukha: i just have ours ready to go i think, or mb not need to see what turn it was I last took them
heh np, been a good chat
4:04 PM i think after this turn or next it should be much clearer with sumeria
and dj mb
Sandover: I hope so
Mukha: ok speak to you later then
Sandover: sure, cya
Mukha:Sandover: bya

(I'll put the rest in a new post because I'm not sure if there's some sort of character limit here or not)

[scooter]

Aaaaaaand here's part two. Especially note the two parts about the time discrepancy for Dantski and our guess about France. For lurkers who haven't noticed, there's been some speculation among non-CANT members if France is the civ who everyone is having "difficulty" with. One of main reasons is their low score which sounds like techs might have been withheld from them. Anyways, here's the chat:

3:45 PM scooter: whats mukha having to say? (if you're too busy talking with him to respond you can ignore this)
Sandover: he being very up front about not wanting to attack us, though he refuse to tell us what the whipping was for
3:46 PM scooter: do you think he's lying at all?
or do you think he's being honest but just not giving away his true intentions
Sandover: he says there should be a hint to what they are up to in a recent email they sent us
my hunch is that mukha is trustworthy
scooter: okay
Sandover: so I cant make much sense of things
3:47 PM scooter: trying to think of what he hinted at
3:49 PM just popped in real quick to copy out the chat log and get out. i'll read through what he's said to you so far
3:53 PM if he's there now still, see if he'll sign a NAP right now...
even if it means making it longer to help him (account for praets)
but yeah, he seems to be totally honest
just curious if he would prove it by signign a NAP
(though i'm only like halfway through the log so i dont know if you covered that and i just havent gotten there)
3:54 PM Sandover: sure, I'll ask him
scooter: i'm just curious his reaction more than anything
3:58 PM i'll be back in 5ish minutes

============================================

4:05 PM Sandover: right, he just went offline
scooter: okay
Sandover: he said he would have to discuss a nap decision with dantski
4:06 PM which could either mean he's staling or have honest intentions
scooter: okay
4:07 PM Sandover: what do you think of indias peace offer to yaz?
scooter: thought it was...interesting
the settler thing is kind of unfair to yaz probably
but really it depends on what kind of role in this game yaz wants
4:08 PM if he wants to survive and play long-term... taking the deal would probably be good for him.
might hurt everyone else
i do need to re-read it again... mali summed it all up pretty well i thought
4:09 PM Sandover: they have at least 4 chariots
and dont want yaz to trade hunting around
and cb whipped some units as well recently
scooter: oh yeah, i'm in total agreement about reading between the lines there
Sandover: okay
scooter: its one of 3 things really
4:10 PM 1. something crazy is about to happen - a backstab or something. i doubt this but everythings possible
2. mukha is flat-out lying to us to buy time
3. mukha and india arent exactly on the same page, like one hand's not talking to the other
or somethign along that line
4:11 PM Sandover: I just dont see what else cb would use those units for
scooter: i know
its not like they'd whip a bunch of chariots to defend against praets..?
4:12 PM or that they would be whipping that hard
if we dont even have iron online yet
Sandover: my hunch is that mukha have a honest approach
4:13 PM which only makes it more confusing
scooter: i know
any guesses at all what the units are for?
Sandover: he said he hinted at it in a recent email to us, but I cant remember any such hint so guess I should go back and read them
4:14 PM scooter: yeah, i dont remember anything like that either but i'll re-read them too
Sandover: it is defenitly vital to him that the information is kept secret
scooter: yeah
wait
when mukha wrote us back last time
4:15 PM like last night an hour or so after i sent out teh big email
didnt he tell us then that dantski had just gone to bed?
because he said teh same thing to you like 25 minutes ago
i dont know what timezone he's in, but those are two totally different times
Sandover: "Apparently Dantski has now gone to bed and I would need to discuss with him, so expect our response tomorrow when he reappears"
4:16 PM got that emails 18hours ago
scooter: Willem: sure ok, dantski has gone to bed though and I definitely can't discuss that without him
sent that 25 mins ago in the chat with you
just seems offf
thats 6 hours different
4:17 PM Sandover: it's 21:00 over here
and was 3:00 when he sent the email
scooter: maybe that fits then... depends on what part of the world he's in
4:18 PM Sandover: so technically we cant say it's a lie for sure
scooter: but it definitely seems suspicious
Sandover: yes
scooter: but right, we can't know for sure
seems like a stall tactic though...
4:19 PM Sandover: it could also be that "go to bed" translates into "left the computer for this evening"
scooter: right... any idea what timezone dantski's in? i'm trying to remember if he ever mentioned that in past PB games
but yeah you might be right on that
4:20 PM if he's in the US, then i'd say he's almost for sure lying. its 16:20 here right now... and it was only 22:00ish when he sent that email last night which isn't THAT late
Sandover: yes
4:21 PM scooter: i do see a potential "hint" that it might be
Sandover: but if he's, say, in england then it's perfectly possible that it's the truth
scooter: "Perhaps it may be an option to replace a continually non-conforming current member with whom several of us are beginning to lose patience."
Sandover: oh
scooter: right, if he's in europe then it's believable
4:22 PM Sandover: hm
could he be going for france?
scooter: maybe? how close is he to france
Sandover: yes, that must be it!?
scooter: wait he has a diagram in that email
france is directly to his south
that really might be it
4:23 PM copying it into here would look awful, but its teh one he sent on march 13th
Sandover: aight, that matches everything he said to me
scooter: around... 22:00 or so your time if i'm calculating it right
yeah, i can see why he wouldnt give that away too
4:24 PM Sandover: then we just need to figure out what dj plan to do
scooter: they were very noncommital in their email lol
Sandover: focus on defense? seems like the reasonable thing would be to push to take entire sumeria
to say the least
4:25 PM scooter: well the other thign is i wonder how seriously they expect sumeria to take that offer
like are they expecting yaz to accept right away?
or are they expecting it to be rejected?
or do they really not know
if they're expecting him to accept it, then we might be in trouble
if it was just a token peace offering, then they might be intending to finish him off unless he surprises them and accepts
4:26 PM and...we just dont know which it is at this point
4:27 PM Sandover: either, even if they send their chariots at us it's quite a walk
and I'd say it doesn't make sense to do it without mukhas support
scooter: right
it seems bizarre
by that i mean, i dont think they'd do it by themselves
exactly haha, took the words out of my mouth
so IF they're coming, mukha's probably coming too.
4:28 PM Sandover: and now I'm inclined to believe that mukha isn't coming
scooter: yeah
i dont know what to think
the france thing would be perfect
india insisting on not passing out hunting is the only piece that doesnt really fit
4:29 PM Sandover: could it be that they dont want france to get it since mukha and other are sending chariots that way?
scooter: does yaz even have contact with france?
but maybe
4:30 PM judging from scores, france hasnt gotten as many techs as the rest of CAN
Sandover: I say we stick to the plan for now and found the city
scooter: yeah
4:31 PM honestly if tons of chariots are coming our way right now
there's not a whole lto we can do about it
so might as well go for the iron
and hope for the best
well
Sandover: I disagree
scooter: we could get some spears out in a couple turns
Sandover: hunting is a fast tech to research
yeah
scooter: but holding out a 2v1 is much easier WITH iron
4:32 PM without it, they can at least choke us pretty badly
forcing us to whip into the ground
Sandover: yes, but that city will be vulnerable for some 10 turns minimum
scooter: yeah
Sandover: well lets found and it and see what happens
4:33 PM scooter: yeah i agree
Sandover: I told mukha he shouldn't go to CAN yet since I wanted to talk to you about his refusal to share his intentions and what dj could be up to
4:34 PM but we need to decide what we want to do from here on
he indicated that trading with CANT might make joining CAN completely impossible
4:35 PM I'd say, with CAN turning on france, that we stick to our comittments, though feel free to disagree
scooter: ah... so its either give away IW like agreed and its a no for CAN, or back out of agreements and join CAN
thats a tough spot
Sandover: he thought so
4:36 PM I told him that on a personal level I prefer to honor all deals, though it was never cut in stone so maybe we have reason to discard them
but if we look at it from this new angle
4:37 PM france goes down
the hydra is then down to 8
so with yaz gone, that would be 6 vs 8
personally I'd be willing to take those odds, but I dont know about you
4:38 PM scooter: hadnt thought of it that way
4:39 PM hmmm... that might not be so bad
Sandover: if cath bruig are going for france they surely arent prepared for us to attack them
scooter: if they say "back out of your deals or else we won't let you in", then i think i'd be okay with a 6v8
right
4:40 PM Sandover: and when he asked about how soon we could possibly turn on inca he referred to turn 100
if we show up inside their borders before turn 90 then, well, pants down anyone?
scooter: right
4:41 PM at this point i'd almost half-consider pressing mukha to confirm/deny that they are attacking france
4:42 PM Sandover: what if they are ok with us making an inital trade round with CANT, how should we handle that?
scooter: in that case, i'd just as soon join CAN and move on... i really do think that's the quickest way to break out of the mega-alliance system
and it might not be that hard to convince them of it
mostly because all we promised is IW
4:43 PM and... pretty much everyone in CANT has copper anyways
iron isn't really that critical right now for anyone else (other than us obviously)
but maybe thats wishful thinking
4:44 PM just seems like it might work
your thoughts?
Sandover: I think we should look at this from a larger perspective
we need a general game plan
4:45 PM scooter: right... because the one glaring problem is we join CAN, a few more get knocked out, and CAN starts to dissolve
then what?
Sandover: if dj, cb, dim and ruff is in a mini-alliance and we cant get up to equal turns with them we're in trouble
4:46 PM scooter: right
Sandover: because if we join CAN those are the guys we will eventually share borders with
scooter: cuz that's all our neighbors
right
we get 4v1'd, and congratulations, we finished in like... 13th place
Sandover: exactly
4:47 PM so we need to consider carefully whether we can split that group up or not
scooter: right
Sandover: if we stick to CANT, inca is an obvious brother in arms
scooter: right
4:48 PM who else from CANT is not that far?
i'll check mukhas map again
Sandover: everyone else but yaz is on the other side of the desert, so none I believe
scooter: right
well directly north of the desert
Sandover: aight
scooter: is mali, babylon, and byzantines
in that order
4:49 PM babylone directly north... or close to it according to the map
maybe we can convince them to bring one of those 3 with us into CAN? problem is we dont really have close relations with any so i dont know how we'd swing that
4:50 PM but that would leave us with another relatively close friend nearby
so werent totally alone
but i dont know
Sandover: from a meta-gaming perspective it makes most sense for us to be allied with civs on that side, and then push in different directions
scooter: right
4:51 PM yeah i'm not sure what to think at this point, honestly i'm good with either route
4:52 PM if only exploit wasnt so unprepared. made things so much more complicated lol
i get the feeling that maybe he's just not all that good of a player. i didnt watch him closely enough in PB1 to really know
Sandover: yeah, we kinda need to dig ourselves out of a hole now
scooter: yeah
Sandover: you might be right
scooter: because without our deal with exploit, joining CAN earlier might have made sense. now its much more complicated
4:53 PM Sandover: tbh, even if we weren't allied with him, I'd still been more inclined to believe his version of the settling incident from the start though
scooter: i mean check out this sentence from yaz about the state of sumeria:
I'm not in slavery civic right now so I can't slave anything
4:54 PM yeah i do agree about the settling thing
but seriously exploit? no slavery yet? in a cramped map MP game?
Sandover: he focused way too much on getting alphabet early
4:55 PM scooter: yeah
Sandover: but lets focus on the present and future for now
scooter: didnt realize that puts a huge target on his back... and to make it worse he was less prepared than just about anyone to deal with that target
right
i just kind of laughed when i saw that email come in from yaz
4:56 PM well at this point i guess we go ahead and found teh city, and wait and see what portugal has to say
right?
Sandover: yeah, I'll update heracles saying that we are moving forward as planned for now
scooter: okay
sounds good
4:57 PM well i've gotta go now anyways
Sandover: we carry out the tech trades as planned as things probably wont change until it's time for them anyway, and then take it from there
ok, cya around
scooter: ttyl

[scooter]

Basic summary:

1. We are kind of on "wait and see" mode with Portugal
2. It is pretty unlikely that we will go back on our deals with CANT members, but the only deal really is to give away IW. We've signed no NAP's.
3. Mukha is either constantly lying and planning an assault on us, or he is telling the truth.
4. If he is telling the truth, our best guess is he is going to attack a CAN member who CAN has had difficulty with. Our best guess is France, which fits as France is directly south of Portugal.
5. We are fine with moving on and joining CAN, or with playing against slightly worse odds and working with CANT. We're pushing for CAN just to speed things up and move on, but if they reject us that's fine with us.

[Sandover]

5. We are fine with moving on and joining CAN, or with playing against slightly worse odds and working with CANT. We're pushing for CAN just to speed things up and move on, but if they reject us that's fine with us.

Just for clarification so that no one gets confused. We are holding out on doing anything for the time being as the mystery of what Cath Bruig is up to unfolds and the peace talks between DJ and Yaz continue. If Cath Bruig is indeed going to attack France and DJ sign a sudden peace with Yaz, we have every opportunity to stick with Heracles other than just taking part in the initial round of trades. Should our guess about France be false and Yaz get killed off though, we are in a 6 vs 9 with a 1 vs 2 on our front which simply isn't viable.

[Sandover]

We have made contact with Ruff. Or well, the opposite actually. His warrior showed up near Scooterville.

Greetings Romans!

My warrior has found your land is saying hello on his way further North. It is good to finally met the last nation that shares my 'row' on this world.

Regards,

Ruff

--
Rapoleon_Hi
Ruler of the Aztecs
Light of the World
Supreme Arbiter

"I haven't met a person that I cannot sacrifice."

Dear Ruff,

We have been told stories about the Aztec people who came traveling from the far east long ago, but the descriptions of your nation have been all put precise. It is good to finally meet you so that we may hear about the achievements of your people directly from the source. Or do you share the curse of silence that seem to have befallen other nations of the CAN?

Regards,
Sandover
Team SsS

Hopefully he is more talkative than DIM and the Anglo-French that have both decided to ignore us.

[Sandover]

I'm running off to uni soon but I'll make a detailed picture update later on once the turn roll over. I will also compose another message for Cath Bruig and there's probably some emails in our in- and outbox that's worth posting in here.

[Square Leg]

I too think that an attack could be imminent and the only way to go would be to queue up hunting and get some warrior builds going to convert into spearmen once the tech comes in.

spears are 35hammer iirc which means we need 5 hammers in a warrior build that can then be changed into a spear once hunting comes in and instantly whipped - we are in slavery right?

If we can get 2 warriors lined up in the build queue with 5 hammers in then we can have 2 spears in 2 turns, assuming we have the population to whip.

[scooter]

Some fairly big news from Sumeria:

Hey Guys,

I think I got everyone in this and I believe I've met you all so I'm allowed to send to you all (if not then somebody passed this along to you :P). I figured I should give you the state of my position and the reason I delayed the end turn so long.

First thing I'd like to make clear is that I'll be trading Alpha & Hunting to all of you. That was never really in jeopardy as far as I'm concerned.

I managed to negotiate a deal with India for a long NAP, border agreement and a couple minor concessions. This was reliant on me getting a deal with Portugal though as there was no point giving India things just to get killed after by Portugal. They initially wanted me to delay hunting and alphabet but I got rid of that clause.

Portugal however absolutely insisted on delays to hunting. They claimed it was because if I was free to give hunting then they lose some bargaining power negotiating with some of you. I don't know the details but I'd like to make it clear YOU ARE ALL GETTING HUNTING. So don't feel the need to bargain like you might not. Honestly I made that pretty clear to them so I would personally assume that they see somewhere they could use their chariot army and simply don't want to meet with spears.

Ultimately Portugal rejected the deal while trying to delay and that's the reason the turn ran so long as I needed an answer from them. This morning Mukha couldn't agree to the deal, even though the terms had been on the table for nearly 20 hours, without speaking to Dantski again and so he rejected it.

As it stands I expect my capital to fall in 2-4 turns. It is only defended by two warriors. Don't waste any of your own troops trying to protect it or rush to it's aid. I have settler out that will settler on Iron this turn so losing my capital will not kill me. I should have Alpha finished to trade next turn or the turn after I think depending on where they move. After this I don't expect to be playing actively as I'll be a one city state with no defenders and might ask that it be turned over to the AI for that reason.

If you have any questions then let me know.

-Yaz of Sumeria

Well well, Portugal is now insisting on Hunting not being passed around, a.k.a. "don't give it to Rome please"... I'm quickly losing trust in Mukha again... I don't see how that's easily explainable - he's got to be sending chariots at us.

[Sandover]

Now here's a really interesting message from Yaz. Note the underlined text.

Hey Guys,

I think I got everyone in this and I believe I've met you all so I'm allowed to send to you all (if not then somebody passed this along to you :P). I figured I should give you the state of my position and the reason I delayed the end turn so long.

First thing I'd like to make clear is that I'll be trading Alpha & Hunting to all of you. That was never really in jeopardy as far as I'm concerned.

I managed to negotiate a deal with India for a long NAP, border agreement and a couple minor concessions. This was reliant on me getting a deal with Portugal though as there was no point giving India things just to get killed after by Portugal. They initially wanted me to delay hunting and alphabet but I got rid of that clause.

Portugal however absolutely insisted on delays to hunting. They claimed it was because if I was free to give hunting then they lose some bargaining power negotiating with some of you. I don't know the details but I'd like to make it clear YOU ARE ALL GETTING HUNTING. So don't feel the need to bargain like you might not. Honestly I made that pretty clear to them so I would personally assume that they see somewhere they could use their chariot army and simply don't want to meet with spears.

Ultimately Portugal rejected the deal while trying to delay and that's the reason the turn ran so long as I needed an answer from them. This morning Mukha couldn't agree to the deal, even though the terms had been on the table for nearly 20 hours, without speaking to Dantski again and so he rejected it.

As it stands I expect my capital to fall in 2-4 turns. It is only defended by two warriors. Don't waste any of your own troops trying to protect it or rush to it's aid. I have settler out that will settler on Iron this turn so losing my capital will not kill me. I should have Alpha finished to trade next turn or the turn after I think depending on where they move. After this I don't expect to be playing actively as I'll be a one city state with no defenders and might ask that it be turned over to the AI for that reason.

If you have any questions then let me know.

-Yaz of Sumeria

So what does this tell us? Well, either Mukha or Yaz is lying to us. Mukha claimed yesterday that the anti-hunting trade clause was purely DJ's idea and that Cath Bruig had nothing to do with it, but now Yaz claims that Cath Bruig are the ones who wanted it in in the first place.

I can't possibly think of a reason why Yaz would lie to us about this so I say that we once again have to assume that we're being targeted. I could call Mukha out on it but as I'm a believer of the sentiment "eye for eye", why not just wish him luck with his "campaign again France" and start to prepare a welcome party for his arrival?

:2dance:

No, not that kind of party!



Now that's more like it!

[Sandover]

Man, I should read the thread before posting!