Is that character a variant? (I just love getting asked that in channel.) - Charis

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[SPOILERS] enough is ENOUGH! scooter opens some windows and finishes first!

Nicolae Carpathia Wrote:No one liked that dude. That's why they're celebrating!
Oh yeah. Executions were a huge spectacle in the first century AD. Ever hear of a dude named Jesus, of Nazareth?
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T-hawk Wrote:Oh yeah. Executions were a huge spectacle in the first century AD. Ever hear of a dude named Jesus, of Nazareth?

For that matter, they stayed big spectacles for at least another 1500 years after that!
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Not going to lie, I'm really not happy about this game being called so early. I'd be happy with spoiled replacements over quitting.

Serdoa's explanations sound pretty reasonable. Again, I'd be ticked if I was Lewwyn too, but from my point of view where it didn't happen to me, Serdoa's explanation makes pretty reasonable sense.
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So I wanted to write up a brief post-mortem now that I've read all the threads and given it some time to sink in. I think this game had a lot of interesting choices, so I wanted to take a look at the key decisions I made and decide what made sense and what I would do differently. One thing that I've come to realize is that I was in a much stronger position than I realized. I previously had been very gloomy about long-term prospects in this thread, and I'm realizing now that was very premature. I think this tends to be a common problem too - I think players write off games as "done" much too quickly sometimes because they have only their own biased perspective and the demographic screen. So someone like me sees Serdoa running away and doesn't recognize the stuff that screen doesn't show, like:

1) My rapidly maturing cottages
2) My rapidly growing cities due to my emphasize on unlocking happiness
3) Serdoa's pretty hefty investment for very little payoff in his war with Commodore
4) I had the largest standing defense military of anyone that wasn't using those units in a hot war.
5) The fact that I apparently razed Serdoa's planned GLib city which I didn't realize.

I figured my chance in the game was a longshot, but upon seeing my economic recovery coming along and drastically improving demographics, I had at least upgraded it to "small but remotely reasonable chance of winning." After reading the other threads though, I'm convinced that my chance of winning was actually pretty high. By pretty high, I mean in the 50/50 ballpark. Serdoa still had a very large lead, but I was gaining ground at a non-trivial rate. The problem was still that he was likely going to clean up a lot of the "first to" bonuses, but if I ever caught him he'd be in trouble as my land and infrastructure seemed to be better-developed. I'd also switched recently to running max EPs on him all the time which would be a hassle for him since I was getting up a round of Courthouses. So the game was in question is my point and I had a prayer at winning. So with that in mind, I'd like to figure out what went right and what went wrong.

What went right
1) My moves regarding the islands I think was a strong decision. It somewhat slowed my growth curve (big part of why people kept pace with me), but it helped keep me afloat in tech - both pillaging the towns and settling two islands. I would've settled for a third (north phants) had I landed GLH btw.
2) Reaching for elephants I think was a sound decision. If the weird Serdoa/Commodore war hadn't quite happened, Commodore would've had awfully early Phracts and I would've been the correct option without them. So in a vacuum, I think this decision was sound. Also, it forced me to settle east which I think had the best land.
3) My emphasis on getting boats in the water and owning both of the mini-oceans was really key. Commodore got burned because Serdoa boated him. In my spot there (after pillaging Brian's town and his seafood), I put two galleys at the end of the canal so it would take considerable force to kill them both, and I would get advance warning. I was also soon to put a Trireme there. In the southeast I also pushed several boats into the water and kept a sentry on Lewwyn. These two spots were the most vulnerable to attacks, so defending them like I did allowed me to be a bit more free in pushing out settlers.
4) Worker hordes - I "overbuilt" workers in this game, which really was what I needed to keep up with the fast REX pace and to ensure I always had improved tiles to grow onto because cities grew faster than normal. It was clear at the end that I had vastly more improved tiles than anyone else, which is why I kinda-sorta-maybe had a shot at catching Serdoa.
5) Currency and MC bulbs - Currency was a key shot in the arm, and the ability to build wealth was really helpful a few times. These two decisions really helped keep me mildly relevant tech-wise while I pulled together some sort of economy.
6) Early tech path - I prioritized Currency, Maths, Construction, and Calendar while ignoring the whole religious branch and the top Lit/Music/Drama branch. Because tech was an issue for me early, I had to pick and choose. My route got me early Maths chops, elephants, and tons of happy (from bunch of Calendar sources + market), so I believe I chose correctly here given my circumstances.
7) Not bothering with Pyramids. Crazy talk right? I still think this map is built for Mids, but I would have never won this race because I would have been too slow getting IW + Masonry, so it would have been a waste. Gameplan would have been better off grabbing the two wonders that would have complemented my Joao traits. Speaking of which.

What went wrong
1) Stonehenge. Granted, this cost me very little because I saved my chops, but I still only missed it by about 2t (or 1 1/5th to be more precise). The reason for missing it was because it was an after-thought for me - I could've easily built it earlier. However, by the time I got around to trying I missed it. I built a Monument in almost every city, so Henge would have EASILY paid for itself and then some. My already strong expansion pace could have been MUCH better had I built Henge. This ws just pure smoke for not prioritizing it when I should have recognized that a) I lacked the tech speed to get a religion and b) I had excess hammers.
2) Great Lighthouse. I could've easily avoided losing 4 forests if I'd actually micro'd carefully. Thankfully I've learned that lesson. Also, higher prioritization of this wonder should've been no-brainer. I'm highly confident that keeping up with Mids with GLH + cottage spam would've been REALLY easy. Doing it without GLH made it much more challenging. Again, lots of smoke here.
3) Not building more wealth than I did - I can't help but feel I didn't do this enough given my abundance of hammers and mediocre finances. I never have a good feel for when this is appropriate.
4) Not pushing south for marble - MoM would've been a nice wonder here (mostly for denial and some for myself), but I don't think I was going to get a chance because I was so far behind almost everyone on settling marble. Now, this is kind of a case of competing priorities as I got other valuable stuff instead (like some amazing eastern land and Brian's bananaland), but I'm thinking this would have been more valuable. Serdoa was probably going to get this which would have been really significant for him.

(comments, agreements, disagreements, and other additions to either list are of course welcome)

One thing I wasn't sure how to classify was Hanging Gardens. It would have been a boon for me, but I don't think I could have gotten it, and I didn't want to waste building an Aqueduct for a wonder I didn't think I could get. I'm not sure on that one overall. Regardless though, I definitely learned a lot in this game and had quite a bit of fun doing it. Thanks Seven for a fun design, and thanks to the other players for a fun game. thumbsup
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To help your analysis:

- MoM was built and I think should have been finished in 5 or 6 turns
- GLib was built and should have finished in 2 or 3 turns

Especially GLib would have been helpful as I was only running 1 spec in the capital in order to build it (not sure that was the righ decision though). But anyhow, in 3 turns my GNP would have gone up drastically (4 merchants each 4.5 gold and 5.25 beakers, 3 scientists each 10.5 beakers = total 18 gold, 52.5 beakers) just due to the capital. Thats not including several more scientists which would have been rehired after I had to whip them away for the war.

I also think I could have gotten Commodores land in the not too distant future. I was well on my way to Guilds and Knights should have had good odds against his troops. And even if not, he could only build LBs soon while I had stacked 10 archers and 4 WEs in the border city - a city which could get another 2-3 archers each 6 turns all by itself. As soon as I had LBs, he wasn't going to take it.

Lastly, after Guilds next tech would have been Banking of course, giving me one rep-specialist in each city. CoL was researched already and I probably would have been able to switch out of Slavery (most cities had outgrown the sweet spots for whipping imo). Even if not, production cities got forges and the commerce cities libraries, so I should in most cities be able to put a real spec and not only a citizen.

Anyhow, not saying you wasn't catching me, because I think you did. But I think much would have depended if Lewwyn attacked full scale one of us or not and what Brian would have done. More then our own play tbh. Still, good play for sure and imo it shows pretty clearly that Pyramids is not an instant win, despite what was discussed here. Even coupled with GLH it is not. But you gain an early lead through those wonders and I think many players are giving up early when those fall and then play not as good as they could, making the lead the Pyramids-owner get bigger than it has to be.
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I think you underestimate the value of those first-to bonuses. Unless Serdoa got caught in a bloody, bloody war while everyone left scooter alone Serdoa was going to land first to everything. There's a reason the early leader often wins - everytime you start to catch up there's a free GP here and free tech there.
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Actualy i think he would have got MoM which shouldnt be to hard if you put efort on it,with all the land he had , when lunching a 9 turn gold age would have turned the table realy high in his favour and after taking directly the philosphy , nationalism route, complatly ignoring paper education until nationalism was done , and preparing a city for a fas taj he could make this game very accesible for him.

In my opinion ,MoM combinated with Taj beats easily mids.Bust serdoa had GLh too, well the land was very good for cotaging and spending 18-36 turn in golden age at least what you get from a cottage its yes 2 gold.

And you can eaily generate 5-6 great persons.3 for golden ages and 3 others for bulbs or shrine.And with printing press coming online realy fast , cottage economy easiyly overtrone the specelist one.
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Are you referring with "he" to scooter or me mackoti? Because I doubt scooter would have gotten it as it doesn't seem like he started on it from his last screenies and without marble I doubt he could have finished it faster then I could. With MoM the next point would of course be launching a golden age. Wouldn't help me as much as a cottager, but still probably enough to get several GPs. Especially with the added benefit of Pacifism (as I finally had aquired a religion).

And tbh, I think I still could have gotten first to Lib + Economics + Taj. scooter was at 256 beakers at -180 gold. With all specs hired I had 344 beakers at -117 gold. My breakeven was ~220 beakers. According to his screenies he had around 90 I guess. So I think it is safe to assume that I could outtech him still - especially as I would get Courthouses as well by now. I simply lost around 15-20 turns I would estimate by my war with Commodore. If I simply had waited for whom he goes, I would have not lost my city against scooter, I would have had settled 3-4 more sites and would have had many more workers. Though quite honestly, I wasn't missing that many workers. A few more would have been great yes, but it was not like I worked unimproved tiles all the time. I would guess maybe 5 in all cities together? And thats partly more for the issue of bad worker management (some cities had more improved tiles than necessary).

Like I said, I am sure he could have caught me. And he certainly was able to turn this around. But I also believe that he would have needed some more help by the others or some more stupid decisions by me (which he probably would have gotten).
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