Winter Wonderland: Selrahc's FFH 2 thread

[Dantski]

Thanks for all your descriptions so far, its really helpful.

I started playing FFH a week ago and I am totally lost on the subject of victory conditions, could you perhaps explain those please?

[Selrahc]

Thanks for all your descriptions so far, its really helpful.

I started playing FFH a week ago and I am totally lost on the subject of victory conditions, could you perhaps explain those please?

I think I can help you there...

Conquest, Domination Cultural and Time are the same, but there are a few little tricks that should be known.

One of the best little tricks for warfare(and one I won't be able to employ in this game) is the utilization of missionary units. In FFH most missionary units can create a great work which adds 15 culture to a city. In conquered cities this will end resistance and give a free border pop. If you take a few missionaries along on the campaign you can give yourself battlefield control and greatly speed up a domination or conquest win.

For cultural the wonder Syliven's Lyre is an interesting proposal, being like a Hermitage that can be passed around between your cultural cities as needed. It should also be noted that there are no cathedrals, and temples and carnivals add % culture bonuses to your city.

Mostly though these victory conditions are the same but require mastering a new technology tree and units. Fall From Heaven has some brand new victory conditions however and these need a bit more explanation.


Overcompensating for something?

The first is the Tower of Mastery. This is a victory condition related to complete control of the arcane. It is possibly the easiest victory condition once you know the tricks.

To build the tower of mastery requires you to build 4 lesser towers related to a magical discipline. Each offer substantial bonuses and are worth building anyway. Each also requires 4 different types of mana. If you don't know the game you would think you'd need 16 different types of mana to build all 4 towers before building the tower of mastery, which is a near impossible task on anything but a huge map.

The trick comes from the metamagic spell "Dispel Magic". This spell returns magic nodes to their raw form. It means that you can build a tower, dispel the nodes and then build the next tower, allowing you to build all the towers with just 4 nodes.

The tower requires a lot less technology investment than the altar, and so is almost always the easier victory condition to pursue. It does require a decent amount of micromanagement to have the nodes ready to build the different towers, and a lot of production to build them.


Literally holier than thou

The altar of Luonnatar is like the transcendence victory from Alpha Centauri in concept. The civilization that built it ascends to a higher level of existence, merging with the One.

Seven layers of the Altar must be built and the first 6 each need the sacrifice of a great prophet specialist. They also require the research of increasing levels of technology, the first 6 needing the religious line the last needing omniscience(culmination of Arcane and recon). A reliable great prophet producing city and a good economy are needed to win this victory condition.

The altar itself is increasingly useful, and it is often worth building a few layers of the altar even if not going for the victory condition. It allows many extra priests to be hired; supercharges priest specialists making them produce more hammers; it adds large amount of experience to disciple units and it gives bonus happiness across the empire.

The tower of mastery and the final altar take many many turns to build, but can be hurried with enough gold. I'd definitely recommend doing that, because in single player the two buildings trigger AI scripts that cause them to declare war on you regardless of previous attitude.


When he started using skulls as props we thought it best just to feign agreement

Religious victory is probably the hardest to achieve now that the "Kilmorphworld" phenomenon isn't so prevalent. It requires 80% of the populace of the world to be following a single religion. I've mainly achieved this goal as a result of the armageddon counter wiping out every other civilization. Even with every civ following the same state religion it won't happen naturally. You'll need to create lots of priest units and start a ruthless inquisition of your own and ally territory, purging other religions from their cities. You'll need to create the Purge the Unfaithful wonder and run the theocracy civic to keep your empire clean, and wage a holy war on all who won't keep your faith.

All in all it is simpler to conquer the world than it is to have them all reading the same hymn book.

[Dantski]

Funny that I'm going for a religious victory in my first FFH game then!

Upto 75% now that every non barbarian city has my religion and got purge.

Trawling through 100+ unit (mostly tigers etc) stacks doesn't seem all that fun

[Selrahc]

Trawling through 100+ unit (mostly tigers etc) stacks doesn't seem all that fun

Turn on quick combat!

The mega stacks thing is actually fairly new coming from the wildmana AI merge. It does make the AI a lot more challenging if they're near to your technology level... but if you have better troops than them it can get a bit tedious just chewing through the dross.

Best option is to immobilize their biggest stacks with spells(charm or particularly blinding light) and move your attack force deeper into their empire to wreak havoc. If you need to kill the units and they aren't particularly obsolete then use area of effect like Maelstrom, Tsunami or Ring of Fire to get them weakened.

But yeah, if you haven't turned on quick combat then you really really need to.

Also: Diplomatic update

Illian to Svartalfar

Well I can't say I'm not saddened by your exploration of Letum Frigus, a more conservative approach could have given us a wonderful platform for future cooperation. I accept that it has happened however, and the location of the landmark is still useful information. In return let me tell you that I have already met the Kuriotates, and could help the two of you to establish contact.

Stasis is not a personal affront against the Svartalfar or any faction. Turns lost in the beginning of the game are more valuable than those lost later, so to give the Illians maximum advantage it must be used early.

May your envenomed blades strike true
Selrahc

I have bad luck with animals, even with my str. 3 scouts, so I tend to
try and get as much scouting done as possible in the early game. I
hope your warrior survives his encounter with the lion! It is always
so irksome to lose starting units on the turn animals spawn. To tell
the truth, I'm a bit hazy on some of the minutia of the Mod now (it's
been ages since I've played it with any regularity -- up to about 3
months after the release of shadow). I've been flogging some practice
games for fun, so hopefully I don't get jumped by Orthus before I can
build up some warriors. I believe he is scheduled to show up around
turn 50 on quick speed?

Noted on the Stasis - it's just a touch different preparing yourself
intellectually for boring turns and actually having to face them.
When I play Illians I also tend to pop stasis early.

I would like to make contact with the Kuriotates, how do you propose
such a rendezvous be set up?

Unfortunately, poisons is a rather expensive tech, so I'm not at all
confident that I'll be striking anything, barb or player, with
envenomed blades anytime this summer! But the sentiment is nice.

-Sareln-

So in response to that I have sent out the following two messages


To the Svartalfar-

The lions were no match for the renowned Illian bloodpets.

I've asked the Kuriotates if they would wish to get in contact with the Svartalfar and sent an approximate list of directions from the point at which I met their scout. To meet up with them send your own scout west along the top coast. They will hopefully be doing the same in the opposite direction.

And the Kuriotate-

You can disregard my Letum Frigus request, since it seems the bonus was already removed by the Svartalfar before I came in contact with them. I offered to help them get in contact with you in return for the location of the site however. If you want to meet the dark elves then head north to the coast, then east until you meet their scout.

Selrahc

This should get them in contact in a reasonably quick time, without revealing my capital to either of them.

[Selrahc]

Alright, trait analysis of the final three civilizations.

[SIZE="3"]Cardith Lorda of the Kuriotates[/SIZE]

Cardith Lorda is the boy king of the Kuriotates. By far the youngest of the great leaders Cardith rose to power with a talent and intellect that seems at odds with his youth. His secret? Cardith is possessed by the spirit of Eurabatres, the first dragon.

For a civilization swimming in "Fine Tailors" Cardith should really see someone about getting a better fitting robe

Cardith begins the game as expansive and philosophical. Expansive works really well with the Kuriotates. The quick build settlers allows them to get their three super cities up and running fast and to spam settlements later. The bonus health allows them to grow their big cities to larger sizes. Philosophical allows you to get early great people faster. An academy in each super city can really help in keeping up with the tech pace of other civilizations past the mid game. Philosophical is less synergistic but still serves as a perfectly decent second trait.

Cardith has an ace up his sleeve however that trumps any single trait. Adaptive allows Cardith to swap his traits around every 75 turns, exchanging philosophical for almost any other trait. Financial for super powerful cottages? Spiritual for powerful priests and civic changes? Raiders for an elite military attack force? Adaptive can do it all and much more. It allows Cardith and the Kuriotates to go for a variety of strategies. The Kuriotate civilization doesn't lend itself as well to this approach as some others, but adaptive is still the best trait in the game.

The first 75 turns(on quick) would normally see the Kuriotates attempt to leverage a lot of utility from their philosophical trait before the first switch. I think I've put a spoke in the wheels of that with my use of stasis however. Heh heh heh.

Cardith is the only choice of leader for the Kuriotates. But really, who else would you want?

[SIZE="3"]Kandros Fir of the Khazad[/SIZE]

The Khazad empire is in a unique position. The dwarves prospered in the underhome during the age of Ice, and could remain comfortably under the surface forever, traditionalist factions want to forget the whole notion of surface living. Kandros Fir is one of the great leaders attempting to prove that expanding back onto the surface would be a great and profitable adventure for the Dwarven kingdom.



There isn't much that needs to be said about Kandros. He has Financial, Aggressive and Ingenuity and all work rather nicely with the Khazad civilization. Financial gives a civilization that relies on money more money to work with, and combined with Aristograrian farms and Arete mines allows them an economy rich in hammers, food and gold. Aggressive combines with the Khazad's innate bonus to city defence to make a nearly impossible to invade faction that can easily survive to build up that incredible economy. Ingenuity gives a bonus to starting gold, and makes upgrades cost only half as much, saving your treasury for use in dwarven vaults.(it also allows some insane production as cities build cheap warriors then send them to be upgraded in training yards to powerful champions.)

Kandros Fir has the traits that you would want if you were to hand pick them to suit the Khazad and is hands down the best leader of the dwarves. The other leader choice, Arturus Thorne(Organized, Industrious and Ingenuity) should only be picked as a handicap.

[SIZE="3"]Decius of the Bannor, no wait Malakim, sorry I mean Calabim[/SIZE]

Decius is a central character in the campaigns and thus there is a degree of choice in his loyalty. He was originally an influential Bannor(Crusading theocracy) nobleman, before being wrongly accused of heresy and cast out. From there he sides with either the Malakim(desert holy men) or the Calabim vampires. He does have a bit of the "Brooding dark hero of ANGST!" thing going on.


So.. Mysteeeeeeerious...

Decius has the minor trait of being able to choose his alignment. This has some minor in game effects, mainly to do with the armageddon counter and events(Although good is banned from using slavery). Looks like Bobchillingworth has chosen neutral, which is probably the smart choice.

His actual traits are Organized and Raiders. Organized works quite well with the Calabim. Their courthouse replacement only reduces costs by 20% so their empires can become quite expensive. Being able to build it faster is good as well since it adds heavily to production and is needed to train vampires. Raiders doesn't work so well. Vampires get a lot of experience very fast, so won't need the commando promotion for free, and vampires definitely don't need a pillage economy.

The Calabim have a choice of three leaders and I would peg Decius as the worst of the three. Flauros has organized paired with a much better secondary trait in financial. Alexis has philosophical and aggressive, which work as a a pair of traits that can give the early game a heavy push making her better at surviving to benefit from those all important vampires.(Raiders by contrast doesn't help much at all in the early game). From his thread title and comments in the setup thread though I suspect that Bobchillingworth has a roleplay reason behind his choice of Decius which makes it more understandable.

[Selrahc]

From tech thread regarding Kyan as dedicated lurker to Pocketbeetle

He says he has visited other threads, but being a recent convert to FFH (we're having an effect! ) he's mostly just been following for the mechanics and rules discussions. He doesn't feel that he is excessively spoiled or knowledgable about anyone's specific strategies.
We've agreed for now that he follow along as a dedicated lurker, and moves to turnplaying and helping a little later, maybe when the early religions start falling.

If anyone feels they've already laid out their masterplan step by step in their thread, or is concerned, please speak up.

My reply in the tech thread

Um... kind of? I've posted a fair bit on what I've got planned right in my first post.

Ugh. I don't know. If it makes the game easier to play I don't think it will matter too terribly. I guess I'm fine with it.

I know Kyan read at least my first couple of posts because he sent me a PM about them. Which means he knows the first part of my strategy is an early rush with the Priests of Winter, followed by progressing up the arcane tech line. The fact that he is joining up with a direct neighbour makes it all the more worrying.

But the idea that an Illian player might be going for an early priests of winter rush isn't exactly mind blowing(But there is a big difference between suspecting and KNOWING). The knowledge that I'm heading up the arcane tech tree rather than say.. recon or metals is useful to the Kuriotates but I don't think it would be too harmful for me.

So yeah. I've got a few problems, but I don't think anything too bad. Any lurkers got anything to add?

[Selrahc]

Killing time. Here is an explanation of some of the wonders in the game, with a focus on the ones that will be of particular relevance to me.

Bone Palace: Gives a golden age to the civilization that built it. Increases magic resistance of units in the city. Comes with philosophy which I'm beelining. I expect to land this rather handily.
It isn't as useful as the Taj Mahal for the simple reason that it is built in a less well developed empire.

Probably more macabre than wondrous.

Catacomb Librarus: Gives a free mage guild in every city in the empire. Also gives some free beakers/turn. Kind of rubbish. It takes 5 mage guilds to repay its production costs and I'm not sure I'll have anything like that number of production sites dedicated to mages. It would allow me to upgrade with a lot more freedom though and the free beakers are nice. Unsure about this. I would probably be able to build it without too much competition due to my focus on magical technology.

Great Library: Sage specialists produce an extra beaker, and two free sages are given to the city. Requires 3 libraries to build. Very decent wonder but not really going to be a priority for me. Everyone will be getting to Writing with haste, so someone else will probably land it.


Guild of the Nine: Allows the hiring of mercenaries. The Hippus will land this if they have any competence at all since it is required to make their hero useful. Pity, as it is a very useful wonder. I'd love it if another civ stole it out from under them, but I won't be attempting to.EDIT: Actually Magnadine may be able to hire without? Not sure.

Form of the Titan: Gives 2xp to every unit built. Very handy for my civilization especially with something else that adds 2xp, giving me 2 promotions right off the bat. I'm going to need the Warfare technology to build the heroic epic anyway, so I might well have a shot at this. It needs a level 6 unit so some civs might not even be able to build it even if they beat me to the technology.

Crown of Akharien: Adds 100% to research rates in a single city. It can be moved after being built, so I can build it in a production centre then shift it to a research area. It comes at Arcane Lore, deep in the Arcane tech tree. I really really should land this, and it will help in the finishing steps of research.

The Nexus: Provides a free obsidian gate in every city. Obsidian gates allow you to teleport units to other sites with obsidian gates. Immensely useful wonder which drastically increases troop mobility in a lategame that lacks railroads. Very deep in the arcane tech tree so I expect to have this wonder.

Pact of the Nilhorn: Summons three giants, which are almost as powerful as priests of winter. They don't gain free experience and they can't use magic, so not as good for attacking as the priests, but available similarly early. If someone beelines for this they'll have a very good defence in the early game. Very useful for elven civs as the giants work as pseudo siege weapons, capable of tearing down city defence. I could definitely grab this, but I'm doubting I'll try. Just use the priests. The 3 giants are called Larry, Curly and Moe in one of the few pop culture references in the game.

Never watched it myself

Prophecy of Ragnarok: Adds to the Armageddon Counter for every unit built. If I was going to use it I'd be playing as the Clan of Embers. Lets keep that Armageddon counter nice and low. If you aren't trying to raise the Armageddon counter it should only be built for denial purposes.

Shrine of Sirona: Acts as a pseudo march promotion, giving minor healing to one unit per turn of your choice. I'm going to be trying to build the tower of divination early to lightbulb into either arcane law or strength of will, so I'll have some spirit mana on hand to build this. Fairly cheap but only marginally useful wonder.


My planned tech progression probably means that these are the only wonders I'll have any sort of shot at. There are some useful ones at other points in the tree though. (Guild of Hammers for a free forge in every city along with bonus hammers from engineer specialists leaps to mind).

[Selrahc]

Hey in case people don't know about it, there is a FFH manual . Mildly outdated at the moment but it still serves as a great reference when trying to work out the complexities of the game.

[Selrahc]

Reply from Pocketbeetle

Hi Selrahc,

First of all, my condolences on losing the Letum Frigus bonus. A free Aggressive trait would have been huge!

Secondly, thankyou for your kind instructions on contacting the Svartalfar. You didn't have to tell me, so I appreciate you doing so.
The Kuriotates have yet to meet any other civilisation (legally), although our mystics have reported the presence of vampires on the same landmass as us.

I've been undecided how to move my scout - either to scout a bit further North, or NW/NE.
Since I've now met you, I'll probably head NE towards the Svartalfar, although truthfully I expect the poor scout to not last long.

Looking forward to cooperating with you in the future,
Pb (bumbling Boy King extraordinaire)

Things seem to be going relatively well there. Sent him a short friendly reply.

Ugh. Got to pick one of my neighbours to kill. It's a hard life being a tyrannical despot looking to conquer the world.


Not just chants. Ancient chants. They're at least twice as good as the regular sort.

Researched my first tech. Hooray!

And my warrior returns to my capital, just in case the Kuriotates aren't all that friendly. Note their scout in the top left.
I'm on top in score due to the technology and the population I gained this turn. A magnificent accomplishment! It's almost like I froze all my opponents or something. :neenernee


Good work Flothers. Have a juicy steak.

The Svartalfar were on the level about Letum Frigus at least. Lets hope Darell is right about being able to get the bonus!

[Selrahc]

Multipost.