[Spoilers] This Perfect Place

[Mr. Cairo]

I would be delighted to have a semi-dedicated lurker. I was happy enough just reporting my turns, but it would be great to have someone to bounce ideas off of and point out my errors, like you just did with the clam lake. I did go and test that and you are correct. Although with the discovery that there is more land to my north I don't know if I'll be settling near that lake soon, it's still good to know. One of those civ-facts I'll need to try and remember, just like the fact that oases have a movement cost of 2

[Khan]

I would be delighted to have a semi-dedicated lurker. I was happy enough just reporting my turns, but it would be great to have someone to bounce ideas off of and point out my errors, like you just did with the clam lake. I did go and test that and you are correct. Although with the discovery that there is more land to my north I don't know if I'll be settling near that lake soon, it's still good to know. One of those civ-facts I'll need to try and remember, just like the fact that oases have a movement cost of 2

I believe that's a result of an oasis being a desert terrain type. Easy to miss though.

Ok, great. In that case, I'd like to try and dissuade you from settling a 'land grab' city without any food. In my experience, food is everything and against competent human opponents it is better to settle for food but claim less land than vice versa. This may be a moot point now as food has been discovered. The second city spot is ideal. For the third, we have got a bit of a long stretch, which I am usually pretty opposed to. That being said, the food is where it is. My current tentative consideration (that's some serious hedging), is to found city 3 on either the scout's location or the western X. The currently marked site 'city 3' would be a filler after these have both been settled (and will eventually be a great commerce location). I can't decide which of the two spots I prefer so we should keep the options open. Both unlock a new food resource (two, technically) and an early happy, so both are nice. I think I lean towards the scout's location as it's a) more contested and b)less in need of a border expansion immediately. It's marginal though.

[Mr. Cairo]

I believe that's a result of an oasis being a desert terrain type. Easy to miss though.

Regular desert tiles only takes 1 movement point. The oasis addition to the desert increases the movement cost to 2.

To make things easier I put together a proper dotmap:


(In the order I'd probably want to settle. Also, remember that the deer next to the sheep is on a mountain, so is not available)
Blue: Pretty obvious second city spot.
Red: What I'm leaning towards for city 3. It is a long way away, but if we can grab that spot and hold it from Gawdzak, I like the position it puts us in. It has a good amount of food, and is in a great defensive position once the forests to the W and SW are chopped.
Pink: More of a land grab city, with all its food second ring, but I think that it can take Blue's pigs without any problems. By the time this city is down I'd like to have Blue be at the happy cap working the deer, and an even mix of mines and cottages, so it won't need the pigs anymore. I could put this city 1N, so it has first ring wheat, but plains wheat isn't that great anyway, and I want to have the Marble first ring, and the Gold to the west be in two city's cultures. Those two resources are quite important and I want to ensure I retain control of them against Gawdzak's CRE-powered culture.
Green: finishes off the line of cities facing Gawdzak, and secures control of gold (eventually) and stone. Not much food, so it isn't ideal. In fact, if you have any dot-map suggestions that would make that side of the landmass better, I'd be all ears.
Black: Much better than green, with three food sources. I envisaged this one going down after Green so that green can build its workboat, so it has plenty of food right off the bat, but it's possible that Green is so marginal that it would be better to get Black down first
Purple: Filler city assuming sea-food in the fog. Really only good once I get Iron Working and the worker labour to chop all that jungle.

All this is complicated by the fact that my warrior has revealed that the land-mass extends to the north of my Cap. Next turn he'll go onto the hill as marked by the arrow, but then he has to turn back so that he can cover my settler. So far there isn't a lot of land up there and no food, just that grassland incense, but I'm fairly confident that the warrior will reveal some food up there and possibly a lot more land. I'm worried that my horses or copper might be up there somewhere, which would be a massive pain.

Here's a blank map if you want to make a dotmap of your own: http://imgur.com/MKOtCdN

[Commodore]

If you see "oasis" you should actually think "forest-type". It'll even block vision.

[Mr. Cairo]

If you see "oasis" you should actually think "forest-type". It'll even block vision.

Thanks, Commodore, I hadn't realised about the vision thing, although I can see it in my screenshots now. It does however, make that city spot even better defensively, limiting attacks by 2-movers to only a single tile (SW).


On to the turn:

Miracle of miracles, the panther chose not to attack. Still somewhat nervous about the whole thing I chose to move to the forest that's on the Eastern coast, revealing a surprising lack of seafood.


Next turn Raven will head south, remaining cautious, probably ending on the hill where the panther sign is, but potentially in the jungle 2S. I really want to keep this scout around to see where Gawdzak places his first city.

Up north, my warrior Otto (bonus points for anyone who can guess my unit naming theme, my city one is pretty obvious) discovered that the land does in fact end up there, but with room and food for a pretty nice (Moai?) city on that hill.


Another filler city can go on that plains hill 2N of the pastured sheep.

One more thing to note: I will not be complacent or lazy about back-line cities. There's a lot of land out there separated from me by narrow stretches of easily traversable water. Sea power will be essential in this game right from the get go, not just post-astro.

Related to that, I think that after Pottery I'm going to get Sailing, mostly to hook up those whales, but I also want to get a galley out there ASAP. However, if I feel threatened, or I see an opportunity down south, I may go for Archery -> HBR.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

If you see "oasis" you should actually think "forest-type". It'll even block vision.

Thanks, Commodore, I hadn't realised about the vision thing, although I can see it in my screenshots now. It does however, make that city spot even better defensively, limiting attacks by 2-movers to only a single tile (SW).


On to the turn:

Miracle of miracles, the panther chose not to attack. Still somewhat nervous about the whole thing I chose to move to the forest that's on the Eastern coast, revealing a surprising lack of seafood.


Next turn Raven will head south, remaining cautious, probably ending on the hill where the panther sign is, but potentially in the jungle 2S. I really want to keep this scout around to see where Gawzdak places his first city.

Up north, my warrior Otto (bonus points for anyone who can guess my unit naming theme, my city one is pretty obvious) discovered that the land does in fact end up there, but with room and food for a pretty nice (Moai?) city on that hill.


Another filler city can go on that plains hill 2N of the pastured sheep.

One more thing to note: I will not be complacent or lazy about back-line cities. There's a lot of land out there separated from me by narrow stretches of easily traversable water. Sea power will be essential in this game right from the get go, not just post-astro.

Related to that, I think that after Pottery I'm going to get Sailing, mostly to hook up those whales, but I also want to get a galley out there ASAP. However, if I feel threatened, or I see an opportunity down south, I may go for Archery -> HBR.

Interesting ideas. Dotmap is nice too. Any wonder plans or just wanting to REX hard?

[Khan]

Sorry, not had chance to even play my PBEM turn yesterday let alone dotmap. I do intend to though, probably tonight. Please do take everything I say with a pinch of salt though, you're probably a better player than me!

The desert thing you are quite correct about, for example. I have been trying the fall from heaven mod recently and I think I got confused between the two.

[Mr. Cairo]

Interesting ideas. Dotmap is nice too. Any wonder plans or just wanting to REX hard?

No wonder plans ATM. I don't think I can out-micro many of these players, I simply lack the experience to compete for those early-game wonders like Oracle, Mids, or GLH. Also, my only neighbor is the only IND civ in the game, so will certainly make wonders part of his plan, while I can just make conquering him part of my plan. Let him build the wonders for me

Sorry, not had chance to even play my PBEM turn yesterday let alone dotmap. I do intend to though, probably tonight. Please do take everything I say with a pinch of salt though, you're probably a better player than me!

The desert thing you are quite correct about, for example. I have been trying the fall from heaven mod recently and I think I got confused between the two.

I remember coming back to "vanilla" civ 4 after years of only playing Rhys and Fall, and it took me a while to remember that my scouts have 2 moves again, and jungles and deserts are no longer impassable to most of my units, so I get where you're coming from.
I honestly have no idea how "good" I am at civ, since I've had nothing to compare it to until now. So I think I'm going to reserve judgement of myself until after this game.

[Mr. Cairo]

So the panther's going to get a second shot at my scout:


He's got better than 50% odds this time at least should the panther choose to attack. If Raven survives he's going onto the jungle hill, both because I want to know if we're connected to that land across the water, and because it's the best tile to stop and heal on.

In other news, I'm beginning to suspect that me and Gawdzak are alone on this landmass.


It's hard to see, but those are waves shitting the edge of Persepolis. I suppose it was easy enough to assume that he would have a coastal start mirroring mine almost exactly, but it's nice to have confirmation. Since that is the case, I find it hard to believe that Gawdzak has another neighbor/more land to his south, since that would be imbalanced in a couple of ways. And this map is anything but imbalanced.

This is both good and bad. Good because it means I can focus all of my effort on Gawdzak. Bad because he can do the same with me. I'm hoping that he will be unable to pass up the opportunity to go for early wonders, being the only IND civ in the game, and I can either conquer or cripple him with a classical-era war. I know it's generally not considered the best time to war, when the defender has a huge advantage, but I can't see myself beating Gawdzak long-term without a war, since IND and CRE are such good peace-time traits.

So my tech plan after BW as of this moment is: AH-Wheel-Agri-Pottery-Sailing-Archery-HBR-Writing-Math-Construction-IW. I'm getting IW so late because I envisage my main attackers to be HAs, with cats and axes/spears as slow-movers. I'd probably want to attack just a couple of turns after Construction, setting up with overflow and whips to throw out a bunch of cats very quickly. If the war goes really well I won't need swords, if it goes really badly, it won't matter, and if it goes somewhere in between, then the arrival of swords halfway through can help finish things off. In order to not alarm Gawdzak too much, I'm going to try and avoid any sudden spikes in power, just a steady build-up, trying to stay ahead of him, but in a way that makes him think I'm just being paranoid. This may be relying a bit too much on my newbie status, but I doubt he'd imagine I'd be so aggressive. In fact, I could imagine him thinking that I'm mainly trying to avoid being an early-game snack for the favourites to win.

If he chooses to be aggressive, I can alter my plans easily enough. Hide behind Protective walls and archers while getting IW->Metal Casting for Triremes to establish naval dominance, which can turn the tide of battle, or enable me to settle elsewhere, and get an advantage that way.

I suppose I could even go the naval route straight away, and try to out-build/out-expand Gawdzak that way, but there are too many unknowns. I can see a lot of land just offshore, but are those empty islands, or are they landmasses similar to my own, occupied by other players? And there's nothing stopping Gawdzak from doing the same; with CRE borders and wonders back home, I'll just fall behind and stay there.

War is the only way to go here. Now I just have to do it right.

[Mr. Cairo]