American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Its a correlation if I'm in favor of democracy though and again I would say the systems in place are the key and not the color of peoples skin. Its always interesting to hear people who probably don't work half as hard call immigrants "unproductive". 

Listen Greenline. This is the only time in history that anyone has EVER told their political followers that another group of people should be looked down upon. Only time. Never happened before. There is 0 historical reason you should do some introspection. Humans have never before looked down upon the "other" and used that as an excuse or to help grab power before. No group of people has every believed they were the bestest shit ever before...... Just keep believing this; its 100% true this time. I mean this only time its ever been said before.

As a father something that comes up fairly often is I have to remind my small children that they are not in fact the center of the universe and that other people are well people too.

[greenline]

This entire conversation, I've been agnostic on the root cause of why groups of people have better or worse overall outcomes. Culture is a factor, maybe it is the only significant one. But culture is sticky and doesn't want to change. If one was to suggest that it had to be changed - for instance, that all the muslim immigrants pouring into Europe would have to convert and stop acting like muslims, how well would that suggestion go over?

Listen Greenline. This is the only time in history that anyone has EVER told their political followers that another group of people should be looked down upon. Only time. Never happened before. There is 0 historical reason you should do some introspection. Humans have never before looked down upon the "other" and used that as an excuse or to help grab power before.

You're putting that phrase out there, "an excuse or to help grab power". But the job of politicians is to grab power using whatever excuse or promise that gets them there. A politician that didn't use excuses to get power would be bad at his job!

[Mjmd]

This entire conversation, I've been agnostic on the root cause of why groups of people have better or worse overall outcomes. Culture is a factor, maybe it is the only significant one. But culture is sticky and doesn't want to change. If one was to suggest that it had to be changed - for instance, that all the muslim immigrants pouring into Europe would have to convert and stop acting like muslims, how well would that suggestion go over?

Listen Greenline. This is the only time in history that anyone has EVER told their political followers that another group of people should be looked down upon. Only time. Never happened before. There is 0 historical reason you should do some introspection. Humans have never before looked down upon the "other" and used that as an excuse or to help grab power before.

You're putting that phrase out there, "an excuse or to help grab power". But the job of politicians is to grab power using whatever excuse or promise that gets them there. A politician that didn't use excuses to get power would be bad at his job!

Over multiple conversations you've been VERY clear on the root causes.

Doesn't mean you have to fall hook, line, and sinker for it. That is part of the frustrating thing living in the age we do. In the past these kind of tactics working you could ascribe to human nature and a lack of knowledge of history. I know you know history. Maybe we disagree on parts of it, but you are aware of it. You can't miss the these kinds of repeat themes in history. The very first written histories in Sumeria have writings of how much better they thought they were then the next city over because of how great and better their God was. The reason changes, but that thought process of "the group I'm part of is superior" has not. Its not historically new. Its a really well tread path that has been used on all sorts of differences between people. So is this the first time ever in history its correct? Seems doubtful.

[greenline]

Those Sumerians you mentioned, their entire language and culture was eradicated after they were invaded and conquered by the Akkadians. Then the Akkadian language and culture was eradicated by the Assyrians. Then the Greeks and the Arabs wiped out the Assyrians too, and the few remaining Assyrians today are being massacred by Turkish proxies. This is not the first time ever in history it's been right - it's always been right! It's a dangerous world out there.

[Mjmd]

They've all been wrong about their self confident "superiority". And you keep believing the propaganda. We are not being invaded.

Let me tell you about the Hmong. Even living west of Milwaukee I hadn't really encountered them until I moved after college to NW of it. They only have about 3 population centers in the US and one of them is the Milwaukee area. Some of them fought with us in Vietnam and then immigrated here as political refugees afterwards. They are a great community. I encounter them in parks around here all the time. I still remember one of their older children playing with mine during a time they normally hung onto me. This was not a one time thing, but the first time sticks in my memory because this was like 45 minutes. One time some were having a family picnic and doing some activities and one of my three children who I didn't at the time have under my eye went and joined in without me knowing. Last year a family of them moved in across from me; great. I've had great experiences with lots of immigrants or even just a muslim women today asking a question in broken English with her two boys. It didn't hurt me. She just wanted to make sure her kids had a good time at the zoo. My wife on 3rd shift works / worked with almost all immigrants despite better pay on 3rd.

Listen I'm sure there are bad examples, but that is humans. In your ancestors are assholes and non assholes. Its just part of ancestor math. Sometimes I am, but most of the time I try not to be. What are you going to be?

[greenline]

I also possess the ability to be friends with immigrants while also wanting mass deportations to occur.

"Rule describes trend." "Ah, but there exception to rule, therefore trend does not exist." A tedious way of arguing and seeing the world...

[Charr Babies]

Enough about ancient cave paintings and bedtime stories.

Using history to predict events has many flaws. The world evolves, making direct comparisons unreliable. Complex variables such as politics, economics, and human behavior interact unpredictably, and unprecedented events can further disrupt expectations.

Relying too much on history leads to bias and oversimplification. People often cherry-pick past examples to fit their beliefs while ignoring contradictory evidence. Misinterpretation also plays a role, as selective readings of history can distort predictions. Forcing historical templates onto modern situations results in misguided assumptions.

Let’s focus on the present. Politics, economics, and society have changed - things aren’t the same as they were decades ago. Instead of assuming history will repeat itself, look at current trends and shifting global dynamics.

Have a meaningful debate and keep the discussion relevant, analyze what’s happening now, not just rehash historical cycles. 

.

[BING_XI_LAO]

IT CAN. However, look at the global corruption indexes vs the global democracy indexes. There is a HIGH correlation between better stronger democracies and less corruption. 

Do the indexes count privatising infrastructure as corruption? Maybe policies designed to limit the construction of new housing in order to drive up real estate values to the benefit of the banks and the rich at the expense of everyone who pays rent or mortgage (thinking of the Australian example), are those corrupt? Does it count as corrupt when entire countries like Yugoslavia and Iraq and Libya are destroyed? Does it count as corrupt when, against the express wishes of the electorate, foreign labour is imported to suppress the wages of the citizens? Does it count as corrupt when homosexuals are allowed to adopt little boys, or when genital mutilation and chemical castration is funded and encouraged? 

Just did a google search and apparently these things are "corruption perception indexes" so of course Westerners ping as the "least corrupted" (most brainwashed) countries. Democracy rests more on indoctrination and ceaseless propaganda than the other government forms, therefore the perception of corruption is low. And any corruption that's admitted to probably just gets blamed on a replaceable political party lol

The more i read MJMD posts the more I realise how totally axiomatic the disagreement I have you is. For example you think that it's corrupt to reward the people who brought you to power. I consider it inevitable. You consider it inappropriate for authorities to determine truth. I consider it definitional that authorities determine what's considered truth, otherwise they are not authorities. And so on.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Its a correlation if I'm in favor of democracy though and again I would say the systems in place are the key and not the color of peoples skin. Its always interesting to hear people who probably don't work half as hard call immigrants "unproductive". 

Listen Greenline. This is the only time in history that anyone has EVER told their political followers that another group of people should be looked down upon. Only time. Never happened before. There is 0 historical reason you should do some introspection. Humans have never before looked down upon the "other" and used that as an excuse or to help grab power before. No group of people has every believed they were the bestest shit ever before...... Just keep believing this; its 100% true this time. I mean this only time its ever been said before.

As a father something that comes up fairly often is I have to remind my small children that they are not in fact the center of the universe and that other people are well people too.

Politics is inherently about defining your group and conspiring to seize power from other groups using lies and violence. That's all there is to it. Believing you're not the best group will see you get outcompeted, so even if you personally think your group aren't the best people, you should still tell them they are the best, and that they deserve to rule les autres.

The group, in my opinion, should be a biological continuation, a bloodline, otherwise you are simply corralling hatched cuckoos from various nests in service to some ideology or other that will surely mutate and spin away over time anyway. If an ideology is worth something, it should be able serve the proliferation and improvement of the bloodline. Who and what we are, our inherent quality, is what truly matters, not the external conditions.

[BING_XI_LAO]

The very first written histories in Sumeria have writings of how much better they thought they were then the next city over because of how great and better their God was.

They are my patrilineal forebears, and our Gods will return.