American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charr Babies]

Trump has called out Rubio’s lies and acknowledged his role in the illegitimate war against Iran. Now, he is positioned for the Nobel Peace Prize, solidifying his legacy of peace and unity..  

The West calls for prayers for Israel while condemning Iran for retaliating. We justifying it as a preemptive strike, since Iran is supposedly a week from having nuclear weapons, a claim Israel has maintained for 40 years.

By that same logic, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is justified - striking first before nukes can be installed next door in Ukraine. The hypocrisy is impossible to ignore. 

[greenline]

The good news is that the US isn't directly involved in what is going on. Sucks for Iran, but ultimately it isn't our job to make sure they win any more than it is to make sure that Israel wins.

[BING_XI_LAO]

It's quite interesting to see Israel try to wag the dog. Americans do view Jews as morally and spiritually superior, which is why they hand them free money and weapons, allow them the unique privilege of being ethno-nationalist, exempt them from existing as a category under affirmative action/DEI type policies, exempt them from the concept of nuclear non-proliferation, and so on. But the willingness to fight another entire outright war for Israel, which could again scale into costing trillions of dollars, appears to have dissipated over the decades spent occupying two of Iran's neighbours.

What if Iran simply maintains a constant low-level bombardment of Israel indefinitely? The US won't feel obligated to respond to that kind of salami-slicing...

[darrelljs]

the illegitimate capitalist regime.

What makes it illegitimate?

Darrell

[darrelljs]

the illegitimate war against Iran

What makes it illegitimate?

Darrell

[darrelljs]

I would be beyond shocked if there is any active participation by the US military against Iran, it would not play well with Trump's America First base.

This just feels like Israel made a calculation that they have a relatively unique opportunity to fuck up Iran with acceptable risk.  Hezbollah, the Houthis, Hamas, Syria, Russia...all the traditional allies have troubles of their own.

Edit: and they probably were concerned Trump would cut a bad deal over Iran's nuclear program.

Darrell

[Charr Babies]

the illegitimate war against Iran

What makes it illegitimate?

Darrell

Same reason with the US's invasion of Iraq.

[darrelljs]

Hmm.

Was Iraq an existential threat to America with a WMD program?  Nope, ergo the only reason for war remaining was to "liberate" the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein.  Likely illegitimate.

Is Iran an existential threat to Israel with a WMD program?  Yup.  What they are doing in Gaza is beyond the pale but I don't see attacking Iran when the opportunity presented itself as illegitimate.  Whether it's illegal under international law is murky.

Darrell

[greenline]

Is Iran an existential threat to Israel with a WMD program?  Yup.

It really isn't. Iran with nuclear weapons just means that they can insist that Israel doesn't bomb their territory, which has little impact on their ability to wage proxy wars via Hezbollah.  Something that got decimated recently via non nuclear means.

[Mjmd]

I think this makes the 3rd time I agree with Greenline. Although there is more to it. I don't like either side and I don't know if there is a "correct" side here. But I think it is important to understand.

Its important to remember both of these sides are basically in a "war" already. Its mostly via proxy forces, but there is the occasional non proxy exchange. This just being the most recent. Comparing this to invasion of Iraq or Ukraine isn't a good comparison for this reason. Iran has a history of being a danger to Israel and is very involved in supplying proxy forces. Israel also has a history of being an asshole, which is why a lot of those proxy groups exist. Everyone knows Iran is developing the bomb, which with its history of dispersing weapons isn't the most comforting, which is also a pretty major difference. Now something most people just ignore for some reason is that Israel already has nukes. Everyone focuses on Israel defending itself from Iran, but right now Iran has zero defense against nukes from Israel. Now like India Pakistan I don't think 99.99% of the time it would come to that (although that other .01% is why nuclear non proliferation is preferred). Having nukes is a great incentive on the escalation ladder like we saw recently with India Pakistan to stop sooner rather than later. This is where Greenlines statement comes in. In general we've had some great examples recently of nuclear powers doing what they want to non nuclear powers that aren't covered via alliances and other countries nuclear umbrellas. Which raises risk of nuclear proliferation. But ya you can see why each side is doing what they are doing to an extent. That being said Israel attacking to such an extent is a mistake. If they had just struck at facilities that were working on nukes that would be one thing. However, doing such extensive strikes just proves to Iran that they should get nukes as that is their best defense to prevent situations like this from happening. Also, the whole hate and anger cycle.

Obviously some kind of nuclear treaty leading to a more detante situation would be nice. Too bad something like that never happened only to get torpedoed. The situation now is a lot more tense and angry which makes those kinds of steps harder.