American Politics Discussion Thread

[darrelljs]

I find it amusing you cast stones at a Harvard study that, essentially, supports your position .

Darrell

[Charr Babies]

REPEATED REGURGITATION DELETED

I've pointed out that democracy better many times. That has kind of been my whole thing. Hopefully the book above has some additional angles you will ignore. 

You are absolutely right. I took a quick glance and decided to ignore the entire post of you still in denial, grasping at straws - nothing new. Too many logical flaws to be dealt with.

I wouldn’t say these are my last words on the topic, but I will probably post the same as down below to counter your constant REPEATED REGURGITATION OF DENIALS.

So I will sum up for you once again.


- That’s how meaningful comparisons are made. So yes, I used China. Because if you’re going to evaluate systems, you start with the heavyweights. Trying to drag the entire 195 nations in the fight shows how weak your flawed logic is that you are afraid of a head to head between China and the US.

Anything else is just intellectual evasion dressed up as nuance.

Tsk, Tsk, How unfair for China to have to compare to the #1 Super Power, The World Police, The Defender of Global Justices, The Shining Beacon of Democracy and Human Rights  

AND

What qualifies the US as the #1 superpower, world police, and beacon of democracy and human rights, besides brute force? When your proudest achievement is a flawed (by your own admission) record on women's rights.

 
- After tens of thousands of words spent just trying to get you to name some significant examples of accountability, you're still dodging like it’s a game of political dodgeball. And despite all the deflection,  you’ve failed spectacularly to produce any significant cases. You tossed out women’s rights as if that settles the score, but gestures without consequence don’t count. The absence of substance isn’t just telling - it’s damning.


- Invoking women’s rights as an example of accountability in the face of war crimes, corruption, and the deliberate destabilization of other nations is a strategic deflection. It shifts the conversation from systemic abuses of power to surface-level optics. While civil rights progress matters, it doesn’t erase complicity in global misconduct, that we should be accountable for. Civil rights progress is a good thing, but it doesn’t absolve complicity in global misconduct.



You want to compare ancient history? Fine. I have already done that multiple times for you. 

America was founded on genocide. Before the last survivor of the Residential School system has even passed, we are already committing genocide again, AND AGAIN.



- Blame-shifting isn’t just about genocide - it’s systemic. It’s a built-in feature of democracy, a political weapon - As we’ve seen you wield it time and again. For example, while Genocide receives standing ovations in Congress, you’re busy counting heads on which party to blame, Democrats or Republicans. Blame-shifting we use to deflect responsibility and conceal the absence of real accountability.


At home 
Approximately 47K people died from gun-related injuries.  
We fund foreign wars as “money well spent,” while millions rot in prison, 
homelessness reaches obscene levels, 
and drug-ravaged zombies stumble through pothole-ridden streets. 
It’s not a question of affordability, we clearly have the funds but not the will. 
Where is the accountability for your own people?

Jail and gun death is not the right way to combat homelessness



The funny thing is you still have not read or understand my bottom line and got yourself all worked up.

The Bottom Line
Quote:Let’s stop pretending
- Autocracy isn’t inherently wicked, and democracy isn’t some moral high ground.
- Autocracy isn’t a synonym for failure, and democracy isn’t a guarantee of progress.
That narrative is propaganda dressed as principle. Nation building demands competence, vision, and control, not just ballots and slogans. Systems don’t build nations, people do. And clinging to democratic dogma while ignoring results is how empires decay and states collapse.

LoL



PS: good time to make your post and show us your funkier formula How Trump Is Worse Than Biden on genocide.

---

[Charr Babies]

I find it amusing you cast stones at a Harvard study that, essentially, supports your position .

Darrell

I wasn't. I was just pointing out how easy it is, in so many ways - but people still choose to be willfully ignorant.

I was surprised you dared to speak up, hehe  

---

[BING_XI_LAO]

Im not paying to read the whole thing but https://www.vox.com/today-explained-podc...wtab-en-us

... i really hope that PragerU does not become a thing in classrooms. 95% of what they are is brainwash and false information. Trying to rewrite history type of crap.

At least PragerU's typical content would provide endless grist to my mill, of arguing that the USA is a jewish state, just like Israel.

I am absolutely seething these days about the contrast between Israel's treatment by the West, and apartheid South Africa's treatment by the West. Apartheid South Africa never carpet-bombed and blockaded some vast african metropolis for years on end - imagine if we had, and did it using American weapons, paid for with American taxpayer dollars! The double standard between white supremacy and jewish supremacy has never been so explicit. Imagine also that some militarily capable African country intervened against apartheid South Africa, and in response apartheid South Africa was directly defended by US and UK air defense assets.

Instead my dad flew over (helicopter not aircraft) British-supplied air defense assets once, fortunately not properly manned, on a mission to annihilate some African decolonisers with extreme prejudice. Could have been shot down to be clear, they had been supplied TO the natives!

[BING_XI_LAO]

As for the argument about autocracy versus democracy, I would like to point out that there is no such thing as democratic civilisation. Every single civilisation is originally built around the authoritarian principles of Race, Religion and the Leader-Principle.
Democracy shows up later to claim credit, but in reality it is nothing more than the principle of decay. Political freedom, which was once focused in the person of the King so that it might be wielded as a weapon against internal and external enemies, is split into a million competing politicians, bureacracies, and oligarchs, and is thus dissipated and negated. And this was intentionally inflicted on us by the enemies of our blood, our throne, and our altars.
Destiny falls out of sight when this happens. A democratic society is a doomed society, and pretty soon ceases to be a society at all.

North Korea's victories over democracy's combat slaves (kidnapped off the Ukrainian street) in Kursk recently are just a foretaste of what's to come.



Quotes from the video:

I believe that there is an underlying consciousness to the universe, Hegel calls this the geist - and we're able to communicate with it, as long as we have faith. Western civilisation has lost the ability to do this, but the Orthodox civilisation still can. And this explains how Putin can control the battlefield in the Ukraine, how he manipulates the Americans into self-defeating policies. Putin can win out in the end because he is the Ubermensch. During the time of Stalin, the KGB and the Orthodox established a secret plan to achieve the Third Rome Prophecy and restore the Byzantine Empire. Since Stalin's death, they've been looking for the second Stalin - finally they selected Putin and elevated him to supreme power, supporting him ever since. Now with this war in the Ukraine, they see the perfect opportunity to destroy Western Civilisation, create the third Rome and restore the Byzantine Empire.

We can make three  predictions based on this hypothesis which will tell us if this hypothesis is correct or not.

The first is, of course, the war in the Ukraine will shift to Odessa. The final battle between NATO and Russia will take place there, Turkey will enter the war and the war will be extremely unpopular in Turkey, resulting in an implosion of the Turkish government and a revolution, allowing Russia to easily intervene and control Turkey.

The second big prediction is that there will be a falling-out between Russia and China. If this hypothesis is correct and Russia is fighting a war for civilisation, for humanity, it's fighting a war for God. Then the two enemies are Western civilisation and China, because China is even more godless and valueless than the West. At least the West professes to be Christian, but China is decidedly Communist and atheist, proudly so. Russia has contempt for China and will come to see China as an enemy. This will happen very quickly.

The third prediction is that Russia cannot allow Iran to fall, not only for geopolitical reasons but because Iran is another state which is fighting to bring God back to humanity.

If all three predictions happen, then we will have strong evidence that Putin is the Ubermensch, the Second Coming of Stalin.

[BING_XI_LAO]

The USA was built in an immediate sense by the Constitution, by ideals of liberty and self-government, but these were only expressions of a prehistoric energy. The founding stock had previously moved West from Europe to Brittania during the fall of Western Rome and moved further west still over the Atlantic a thousand years later, not so different to all the conquests of the Normans, from Ireland to Jerusalem to Rus to Sicily. The roving spirit of Wotan, ninth great-ancestor of the Anglo-Saxon kings, was the true essence.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Which are the active, progressive nations on the world stage today? Who carry history forward? It is Israel, Russia and China, because they appropriately focus "political freedom" towards strategic goals.
("politics" is control of people, therefore "political freedom" is when you are powerful enough to control other people)
Democracy is the negation of that process of focusing political freedom towards strategic goals. Democracy is the breaking of the rudder. We cannot do anything now.
And yes I know Israel is a democracy, but Netanyahu's power doesn't come from votes - rather from the infiltration of America and the ability to assassinate his Moslem enemies (hezbollah/Iran) or buy their loyalty (Jolani/Azerbaijan).
AIPAC, ZOA, Peter Thiel, Palantir, etc. are not exactly participating in democracy. They are predators who hunt in the rich jungle of western politics once the subversive concept of democracy breaks our ranks and sets us against each other in controlled dichotomies.

[Mjmd]

I mean I ignore Bings posts, but actively ignoring all arguments with the person you are actively arguing with is GENIUS. I ignore everything you say and WIN!!!! ITS SO EASY.

Why are Chinese families sending their daughters to our universities? This was true in my class and I know it was an overall trend for a long time. That is substance. That is Chinese families deciding that maybe womens rights in America are better than China's. That their daughters have a better future here. That is matters. Xi has shut down many feminist organizations and censored feminist platforms. He has put in place more obstacles for divorce. And mind you if we go back in time too much farther I could add a whole lot more.

How well is Hong Kong doing? We have a direct comparison to a democracy within China transitioning to just another autocracy controlled Chinese area.

What is overall immigration like between the countries. China has a state run media to hide anything they do to their people, up how awesome they are, and say how shitty we are. We have free access to how awesome they are; see all your posts. Which way do you think immigration is going? I wonder if we've had trouble (at least pre Trump) with a lot of illegal Chinese illegal immigration as well as a lot of legal Chinese immigration. Where do people want to live?

Before you respond I IGNORE EVERYTHIGN YOU SAY AND I WIN!!! MUHAHAHAH. Or you could actually respond to my points in my last post. I mean you won't; you don't have good counter arguments.

Edit: thanks to thread being at bottom I probably won't respond until Monday.

[Charr Babies]

LoL how timely! Better than my own words 

Mjmd:  ... It’s the THIRD time I brought up all the other democracies going against their geopolitical interests and pressuring the US.”

Mjmd:  ...the number of our allies, despite facing repructions from us for doing so, are standing up to us, is a point YOU CAN'T IGNORE.

Charr: What exactly are you trying to prove besides ‘U.S. BAD!’? Even your allies have had to speak up? Sure, they talk, but they're still wagging their tails, waiting for a command from their master. And you know they'll pay the price if they haven't already.

Mjmd: ...Their voters are protesting about it.

Many autocratic governments are, despite facing repercussions with bombs and genocide from the US for doing so, are standing up to the US, is a point YOU IGNORE. 

that MUST mean the dictators listen to their citizens too

Thank you for proving autocratic leaders are also accountable and listen to their citizens.    

This is exactly how faulty your logic is. Sigh 



...and the guy was sitting directly across from trump 


Whether I reply to your previous post remains undecided, but later, I need a break from your constant pestering with your faulty logic as above.





Original from for those interested. 

---

[Charr Babies]

Housekeeping - While the following section diverges from my central argument, I present it as a textbook example of 

why I dismiss your regurgitations without hesitation.

Fresh from your last post:

Why are Chinese families sending their daughters to our universities? This was true in my class and I know it was an overall trend for a long time. That is substance. That is Chinese families deciding that maybe womens rights in America are better than China's. That their daughters have a better future here. That is matters. Xi has shut down many feminist organizations and censored feminist platforms. He has put in place more obstacles for divorce. And mind you if we go back in time too much farther I could add a whole lot more.

See how you keep moving the goalpost? Example - I answered women’s rights is not a significant accountability. Then you keep pressing, and I reply that women’s rights are not exclusive to democracy. And now you come with “maybe women's rights in America are better than China's.”If I were fool enough to engage with this, we’d end up debating which aspects of women’s rights democracy handles better or worse. It’s your usual tactic, diversion - diverting from providing a meaningful example by going off on a tangent about women’s rights

You claimed it was unfair to compare the U.S. head-to-head with China, and unfair to compare Xi with your last three presidents, arguing that thirteen years is too short a trend. So I replied:

You want to compare ancient history? Fine.
America was founded on genocide. Before the last survivor of the Residential School system has even passed, we are already committing genocide again, AND THEN AGAIN.”

You promptly backed out, pivoting once again to women’s rights, this time invoking Xi, while conveniently ignoring cultural (not Xi-driven) differences in societal preferences. For example, drug use in China faces heavy penalties, whereas here we celebrate our FREEDOM to smoke, snort, or inject fentanyl and turn ourselves into zombies with Xanax.

While we are at it - Drug and alcohol addiction in the U.S. isn’t the disease, it’s the symptom of a deeper collapse: economic despair, social isolation, and a culture that numbs pain instead of healing it.

Just some of your never-ending, relentless pettiness, taken to the extreme.



I get why you are afraid to put the US head to head against China

I'm just arguing democracies are better overall. Sure if you cherry pick the last 13 years, pick the metrics you want, ignore all the negatives, ignore other areas like population differences or relative starting points and only focus on the growth,

Okay, I’ll work with the cherries you picked.

You want to compare more than 13 years? Fine. Let’s go back to ancient history: America was founded on genocide. And before the last survivor of the Residential School system has even passed, we’re already committing genocide again… and then again.

Population differences and relative starting points were clearly addressed from my very first post in Elephants in the Room - first comparing large populations with similar starting points, and then contrasting large populations with a smaller one that had an extraordinary stating advantage, as if born with a silver spoon.

Population: The United States still maintains a significantly larger GDP than China. And when you look at GDP per capita, the gap widens dramatically, America outpaces China by nearly 7x. In theory, that means the average American should have access to far greater economic resources than the average Chinese.

It should be an advantage for the US, largest economy, smaller population = more resources per person. Yet somehow, it's teetering on bankruptcy. The US has the largest economy in the world, yet tens of millions depend on government aid to meet basic needs. With such wealth, how did we end up with such an obscene number of homeless people? Note: Gun violence deaths and incarceration are not solutions to homelessness—they're failures of compassion and policy.

(note: But you noted India’s large population is part of its problem)

Starting Points – Post WWII:
United States: Rose to global dominance through military might and continues to exert power through dictatorship.
China: After decades of internal strife and foreign occupation, consolidated power under the Communist Party in 1949, emerging from a century of humiliation.

So… are you sure it's fair to compare starting points when the US holds such a significant advantage?

Next time you’re defending American democracy and using it to impose ideological critiques on other nations, just yell, “We’ve got better women’s rights!” Apparently, that’s all it takes.

But all the above is just housekeeping…

____________________________________________________

---

---

We could have ended the debate many pages ago.

If you actually pay attention to my bottom line. And I keep nudging you to read my bottom line, hoping it’ll save you from another emotional meltdown

Let’s stop pretending
- Autocracy isn’t inherently wicked, and democracy isn’t some moral high ground.

- Autocracy isn’t a synonym for failure, and democracy isn’t a guarantee of progress.

That narrative is propaganda dressed as principle. Nation building demands competence, vision, and control, not just ballots and slogans. Systems don’t build nations, people do. And clinging to democratic dogma while ignoring results is how empires decay and states collapse.

To simplify things so even you can follow: you’ve listed undeniable flaws of autocracy dutifully(1), and so have I listed undeniable flaws of democracy dutifully(1), we proved - NO SYSTEM IS PERFECT

( 1 ) You keep crying foul when I point out flaws instead of cheerleading the mighty empire. That’s exactly what I’m supposed to do when I speak as the opposition - While you, reasonably, do the same. Calling you a hypocrite isn’t an insult, it’s just accurate.

I don’t need to convince you how CHINA WORKS. The results speak for themselves. I’m not endorsing a system - just stating facts

I wasn’t trying to prove whether one system is better or worse. My short concluding sentence says it all:

Systems don’t build nations - people do

The debate could’ve ended then and there. But you couldn’t let it go, your prejudice simply can’t stomach the idea that autocracy might function. Just hearing the word “communism” turns friends into foes. You don’t argue, you react. It’s not reasoning, it’s reflex.


Note to self: Add genocide to Trump’s credit

While you attempt to sell us on the US model of DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY, you've failed miserably, and still can't offer any significant examples after tens of thousands of words. Now, all I did is gently exhale and watch your HOUSE OF CARDS COME TUMBLING DOWN

BUT

I can sympathize with how emotional and defensive you've become. If I recall correctly, you said you wrote a long ass piece singing hallelujah to democracy and its accountability - the supposed foundation of a successful society. And I shattered your long-held delusion in one single go. But don’t despair. I’m not claiming democracy or your so-called accountability don’t work. They do, WHEN ACTUALLY PRACTICED.

To conclude
You elevate accountability as the cornerstone of American democracy, and wield it to impose ideological critique on other nations, as if hypocrisy were a legitimate strategy, and as if the world hadn’t already measured the distance between your principles and your practice.

No one questioned you; your claims were accepted, taken at face value, without scrutiny.

Yet after tens of thousands of words I spent pressing you for significant examples of accountability, you failed to produce a single one. Instead, you repeatedly pointed to women's rights, as if that alone could bear the weight of your democratic virtue, and as if token gestures could substitute for systemic failure.

Every time you point to women’s rights when pressed for examples of accountability, you reveal your nakedness. The Emperor has no clothes

In truth, what you call accountability is rarely more than ideology dressed as principle, rhetoric that flatters the powerful while shielding them from consequence. It does not restrain authority, it legitimizes it. It does not punish abuse, it rebrands it.

The mechanisms you praise are performative, not corrective; symbolic, not structural. And in every case that matters, power remains untouched.

And so, the story ends

There’s no value in dragging this debate any further. The absence of substance wasn’t incidental, it was revealing. Any attempt to salvage your argument now with retroactive gestures is too late, and too hollow.

You didn’t lose this debate because autocracy triumphed. You lost because you couldn’t defend democracy beyond its slogans

Alt-F4

---

---