Speaker's super top secret thread for the purposes of world domination; Neener Neener

[oledavy]

This is not an issue of : "oh noze, the ruddy bastards on Team #2 found a better way to win the game! we must ban it!" Hardly. I've stated repeatedly that this was a very well-played game from you guys.

My problem with culture and space in a multi-team AW game is that the situation it creates for the other teams is unbalancing. Someone needs to stop the victory run, but whoever does will suffer tremendously to do so while the other teams benefit from their work. In this game, we expending a tremendous amount of hammers into an army while Team #1 obliviously built factories. Had we actually taken Beijing, they would have benefited the most and been in the commanding position postwar. In a two-team game, this would not be the case, since it is a zero sum game. However, my personal preference for any future multi-team AW games would be for both to be banned.

[Ellimist]

This whole thing about banning Culture and Space is very reminiscent of 'The Enemy's Gate Is Down!' last battle of Dragon Army from Ender's Game where they ended up banning an entire victory condition because it allowed the participants to bypass actual combat. In the case of the book, it was a lopsided fight where the odds were stacked against the protagonists attacking with 1:2 numbers against defender's advantage.

Haha

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...post237988

[Tasunke]

+20 win for Ender's game tie ins

[Lewwyn]

My problem with culture and space in a multi-team AW game is that the situation it creates for the other teams is unbalancing. Someone needs to stop the victory run, but whoever does will suffer tremendously to do so while the other teams benefit from their work. In this game, we expending a tremendous amount of hammers into an army while Team #1 obliviously built factories. Had we actually taken Beijing, they would have benefited the most and been in the commanding position postwar. In a two-team game, this would not be the case, since it is a zero sum game. However, my personal preference for any future multi-team AW games would be for both to be banned.

I do agree with the problem facing those teams going up against a team going for a Culture Victory. Thing is though for the CV to work we sort of have to hope that happens. We put the other teams in a prisoner's dilemma. If you had stopped us, you probably would have lost to team 1 in the end because of the cost incurred trying to stop us.

Personally I like that there is this aspect of a culture victory looming over the other teams. But if we're looking for a game that focuses on battle and war yes you should ban it. Problem is if you start a game, someone suggests that it be banned and another team says, "Oh I wanted the option" then you know they are thinking about said victory.

I think that it just needs to be decided in the set-up what people want, and it becomes more of what type of game you want to play. Only war or multiple options.

[waterbat]

I always imagine 'Speaker' as Ender, all grown up ( a tie in to the books that OSC wrote after Ender's game )

I'd hate to see those types of victories banned in ALL games (or become the norm) due to the drama they produce for the lurkers - but I can see a lot of value in seeing a late-era straight up conquest / domination race too.

[antisocialmunky]

I think it would actually be fine given this experience. You now know that its possible to get a multi-team CV and know that its a legit threat. I think the biggest contributing factor to Team 2's win was Team 1 didn't pretty much all-in like T3. It would have been more difficult for us to hold 2 massive SOD's than a single one.

They'll always be controversy though since T1 was building tons of infrastructure over units. Additionally there would be the unknown quality of leaving enough units to defend the border from T3 and T4. The question would still be do you try and all-in to stop the culture or do you try and commit a minimal amount of units so you can take advantage of the situation?

[Wraith]

Don't know if this was answered already but @Sullla: Do you plan on converting the incomplete liveblog into a full legit write-up like the other two on your site?

[T-hawk]

The question would still be do you try and all-in to stop the culture or do you try and commit a minimal amount of units so you can take advantage of the situation?

It's the same problem as in every game. Once a leader emerges, you'd think a dogpile would take him down. But that doesn't work in practice, because no dogpile participant wants to contribute significant resources, or they'll be left behind in the post-dogpile world. This differs from Diplomacy, because dogpile conquering in Diplomacy does not incur dead and lost units; conquering is all gain there.

As for MP victory conditions, I see a significant difference between culture and space. Culture is too fast, especially in a team game with three Hermitages and Bureaucracies and on Quick speed, but even in a game of solo civs it can be done before air power appears to make for viable conquering. Space takes much much longer, and if there hasn't been a decisive war by then, it's reasonable to use space as an "end this now" exit. A downside is that it's nearly impossible to catch up from a tech deficit in a space race, though.

Incidentally, I didn't even realize the culture victory was planned from the beginning. I thought it was a mid-game "what the hell let's gamble" shift, starting when the "Retrospectives Thread" was posted.

[Lewwyn]

Incidentally, I didn't even realize the culture victory was planned from the beginning. I thought it was a mid-game "what the hell let's gamble" shift, starting when the "Retrospectives Thread" was posted.

Hah, I guess we even fooled the lurkers with that thread.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah it was planned from the beginning. We always had the option to opt out mid-way through if we were very dominant or fighting a massive war about midway through the game. However, I think the lack of Shrines, Academies, and Golden Ages really handicapped us especially when I was able to put out so many beakers in my capitol during the 1st half of the game.