RBPitboss #2 Athlete4life10 & Kalin

[kalin]

However, what you're really worrying about as far as I can tell, is someone trading metal to Byzantium. I don't think such a resource will show up in the diplo screen as Byzantium cannot trade it to you. If, however, you have that resource hooked up yourself, the diplo screen will show you that Byzantium already has secured a source of their own (or not), (by hooking it up themselves or through trade).

Hope that made sense...

Hi novice, thanks, it makes sense. Immediately after I posted I wondered if someone can trade a resource they get in trade, but I couldn't remember if that's true. It appears that it's not possible under these conditions to see if Byzantium gets metal, which is not great... for us

Kalin

[novice]

Yeah, short of hooking up copper, researching Iron Working, finding and hooking up iron. Although the appearance of spearmen in Athens would be a pretty strong indication that they got metal ;-)

[athlete4life10]

Some further CoW (Coalition of the Willing) communications:

From Kalin:

Dear Friends from the CoW,

Thanks Dantski for the valuable information. The specific information
that I would like, if possible, is the location of their cities as
well as that of their copper/horses relative to a point known to the
other players, for example your capital. For example you could say
something like: the copper is 15E10N of my capital. We know the
location of your capital, so we can translate the coordinates for
those who don't.

@Rome: Regarding the objective of the mission, I have nothing against
eliminating India, but it may be hard. I would suggest to play
conservatively in general because it's hard for most of us to send
reinforcements past the initial wave.

Regarding the timing of the attack. We don't have to all attack in the
same time. I suggested T100 as a possible target when our troops could
arrive. However, if any of you can take advantage of a tactical
advantage earlier, by all means go ahead and do it. Reinforcements
will only help. Again, I advise caution... try not to lose your units
without some gain.

Please comment on our NAP with India. We have one until T80. Athlete
chatted with Sullla and the NAP came up and we may have to renew it. I
kind of hate to renew it because it limits our options, but not
renewing it will probably raise some unnecessary suspicions.

We will soon get a warrior close to India's territory and was hoping
to use it to steal some workers , but I guess if we sign a NAP we'll
_just_ scout.


Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

And a response from [strike]Rome[/strike] The Galactic Empire:

Dear Friends and Allies,

Kalin, I would renew the NAP if I were you. Since the plan is to attack around Turn 100, that would work out well. I wouldn't worry too much about someone striking unilaterally. In fact, I would urge against such a course of action. I have seen enough of Sullla's play to believe that none of us could stop him alone. In the worst case, it will jump-start their military production. I also do not think that it is likely that you will be able to snatch any Workers; when I passed by, they had their Workers protected at all times.

I'd like everyone else to chip discuss the scope of our mission. Whatever we do, it needs to be something that will permanently cripple the Killer Angels, so the taking/razing of some of their towns should be necessary. The main reason I want to define our mission clearly is to make it less likely that anyone will accidentally act against our interests. For example, if our goal is to eliminate them, it wouldn't make sense for someone to chase down a stray Worker or Warrior. If we are simply trying to cripple them, then it would be a bad idea to waste soldiers attacking a fortified city.

By the way, Kalin, how direct were you when you approached IKZ? If they're not with us, they may warn India. Any indications from them at all?

Seeing as how the game has advanced, there is not much else for me to add at this time. Still, the Empire looks forward to this assault; it should be fun no matter how it turns out.


To victory,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

[athlete4life10]

And I've sent a response to the CoW:

Hello fellow CoW Members:

Here's precisely what we sent to the Inca:

"Hello to the Incas,

We wanted to wish you Happy Holidays and best wishes for the new year.

We also wanted to ask how things are going for the Inca. On our side
things are going ok, with the war in a stalemate. We are however
hopeful that things will have a rather happy ending for us, even
though it may take some time.

There is something else, we would like to discuss with you. You have
most likely noticed India ascension in score and, if you have their
graphs, in food, production, and GNP. India got a great scientist
already, and on turn 74 their GNP was of over 100. This situation
worries us. We think that if India continues at this rate they would
roll over their neighbors and become simply unstoppable, particularly
in this game with tech trading off. As such, we were wondering how you
feel about the whole situation and if you think we could do anything.
We are pretty far from them, so it's not easy to act, but we would
like to at least explore possibilities. I think we should at least
"not help" them with anything at the very least. Let us know your
thoughts.

Happy Holidays,
Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans"

Nothing very detailed, but we have yet to hear any response. We believe they are extremely busy in RL and are very limited with their time. Zeviz should probably rejoin the team in the new year which might help them in regards to communications, but don't expect any help from them in time for the CoW to wage war.

Athlete for A/K
Ottomans

[kalin]

Athlete,

Good answer to the cow. I was going to send the same thing a quote of the exact email so that people won't worry.

I sent Rome... er, the Empire a message. That's pretty much the draft with which you agreed without the alliance proposal. Sigh, I wish Jowy would be a bit more responsive here. Oh well, his our ally for good and for worse so we have to take it as it comes. I do want to move on with an alliance with Rome however. At least, he's very responsive so it will be relatively easy coordinating with him. I am a bit concerned at the moment about coordinating with Greece, but again we'll go with the wave.

I think we may have to renew that NAP with India as much as it's going to limit us. I don't see any other reasonable choice... Let's wait at least for them to suggest it.

Kalin

[athlete4life10]

An e-mail off to CoW:

Dear Whosit and other CoW Members,

Thanks for your opinion on the NAP. We are also inclined to take it at
the moment as we don't see another good alternative.


> I'd like everyone else to chip discuss the scope of our mission. Whatever we
> do, it needs to be something that will permanently cripple the Killer
> Angels, so the taking/razing of some of their towns should be necessary. The
> main reason I want to define our mission clearly is to make it less likely
> that anyone will accidentally act against our interests. For example, if our
> goal is to eliminate them, it wouldn't make sense for someone to chase down
> a stray Worker or Warrior. If we are simply trying to cripple them, then it
> would be a bad idea to waste soldiers attacking a fortified city.


As I said, I have nothing against eliminating India, but it may
require us all to send a second wave of troops. I think that if we
manage to disconnect their strategic resources and pillage their lands
so that they can only work unimproved tiles, then they are as good as
dead. Finishing them off would be only a matter of time (until someone
sends cats in). In conclusion, if we want to choose as main objective
elimination of India that's fine, but to achieve that we would
probably need to do what I just mentioned: disconnect metal/horses and
pillage them.

I would also like to point out that all members of the CoW already
took a risk by joining and revealing information and plans to the
others. As such, I think it is safe to trust each other. However,
communication will still be key to avoid misunderstandings.

We are very excited about this action,

Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

And a response from the HRE:

Dear CoW members,

Great to have that many responses! Though we still like to hear from Jowy on this matter.

Let's adress some points mentioned by others:

1. We agree with Whosit that our goal should be "total elimination of India". But we also know that this might be a though job. So a war in two stages seems like a good plan. First we strike fast with our first wave, disconnect vital resources, pillage all around and try to take one or two weakly defended city's. In the second wave (if we all can send a second stack), we strike at the core of India, take their capital and clean things up. Whosit's preats will help a lot in the city taking and once/if a second batch arrives it will be easier to take the capital and other cities.

2. We also believe that India will have a tech advantage but we don't know if catapults will already be in place in t100. Construction is a long way from writing and if they want to do some other things as well... I personally think they'll be aiming for Literature/Parthenon. So let's not worry about cat's to much. If we keep thing quiet and they don't expect a war, we should do fine.

3. Let's stick to t100 for the strike. That way the Ottomans can renew their NAP untill turn 100 and we've got 24 turns to build armies/roads. With a clear time table, we can do some math and see how big a strike force we can muster. More on that in a later message. We do suggest that we all declare war on the same turn and move our stack in. When they face problems on 5 fronts, they can't focus their defense on one target and they will be in more trouble, I believe.

4. Indeed more accurate information regarding India's lands would be nice if Dantski/Jowy can provide those. We haven't scouted them yet and returning our scouting warrior would seem suspicious.

5. Let's not count on the Inca's. They are really far away and we've got a good enough coalition as it is. On the other hand, if they do want to send some troops, let them!

Well, that's it so far. More from us in a short time!
To bad it will take almost a month before the real action will start....

Regards,
Nakor of HRE

[athlete4life10]

An e-mail off to Rome:

Dear Whosit,

Thanks for being so responsive with the CoW, and also thanks for your
enthusiasm We are equally excited about the whole thing.

Here are some answers to the specific issues from your previous email.
We left out for now the alliance issue, but that is because we want to
send you a separate proposal soon.

> Clauses that include mutual support would be nice--it would make sense that
> at least some level of support would be required in time of war, with
> additional help to be negotiated. That way, there would be little risk of
> one party "standing the other up," so to speak. Obligatory assistance should
> probably be something relatively non-intrusive, like resource or cash
> grants. Something more serious like "loaning" troops, or even a joint war
> declaration, would require more discussion. Just a thought.

It's great we're on the same page. Given that until we have trade
routes and/or currency there is not a lot we can do for each other but
then again, a mutual war will also be a ways away as well.

> A research plan that attempts to minimize how often we each must pay
> first-time cost would be part of an alliance, I assume. We should begin
> discussing the details, especially considering the fact that you seem to be
> ahead of the Empire in some key areas. I will try to think of other ways to
> actively foster an alliance, although I must admit that the inability to
> trade technologies will require some more creative methods than usual.

Certainly as we become closer more detailed strategies can be shared
so as to maximize our research bonuses. You already know our tech
plans for the short term and whilst we may be ahead in some areas we
are behind in others (IW for one). However given that we have been
waging war for approximately 15 turns we are still comfortable that we
are progressing well.

> Now, as for Sailing: My detour to Iron Working has taken a toll on me, as
> well as my work on Masonry, I suppose. I am going to begin work on Writing,
> and then Sailing. I estimate about 20 turns total, but I cannot be certain.
> So maybe Sailing by Turn 95 or so. The good news is that I'll be in a
> position to build Galleys immediately. I may tech faster if many others have
> Sailing--Korea already has it, and you will finish it before me. But let's
> say Turn 95.

I am a bit curious, why did you need Masonry?

> I will have to think about your proposal to gift a city. I suppose it's
> similar to gifting a Settler, except that I would have already founded the
> city. Cash in exchange could be very useful, though we would have to discuss
> what would be a fair price, and it may require a deal to split the inner
> isle ahead of time. If I could find a way to gift you a Galley, that might
> be a better option, although I suppose that would still require you to
> control at least one tile of water on the inner coast.

In order to gift a settler, it would need to be in our territory which
would delay settling a lot. The idea is to found a city, then gift it
to us immediately, which is equivalent to gifting the settler. This is
ok because it's a permanent gift. We have done this several times in
RBP1. Let's start discussing what would be a fair price for such a
city.

> Now, you asked about my time table for Korea. It is a bit . . . fluid, but
> unless they pull out any surprises, I hope to begin combat around Turn 85 or
> so. Unless their military increases at a greater rate than anticipated, and
> unless they acquire Copper or Iron, I believe that I will have an advantage.
> I am not so naïve to believe that I can win a fast a decisive victory, but
> right now I believe that the odds are in my favor.

I don't understand why you think you cannot win a fast decisive
victory against Korea. You have Praetorians, they don't have metal. If
I were in your shoes, I would 2-pop whip each city, then put one chop
as well, to get 6 praetorians very quickly then roll Korea with them.
You have had IW for a few turns now, no? I think your plan to take
Korea out is good. It is important however to move quickly so that you
can get back to development quickly.

We addressed India with the cow... I mean with the CoW Thanks for
being fast and forthcoming on the issue, I honestly think it will
benefit us all in the long run.

Regarding roles in CoW, I think we should all count as equals and
nobody should assume a specific role. For example, having one be
“Commander-in-Chief” could somehow imply that they are above others in
the coalition which may not be a good thing. That's just my opinion,
however, so if you'd like feel free to suggest that to the CoW.

That's it at the moment, we'll send something very soon about the alliance.

Athlete and Kalin of the Ottomans

[athlete4life10]

E-mail received from India:

Dear Rebel Alliance,

I had a chance to chat with athlete in-game today, and the subject of extending our Non-Aggression Pact came up. How about we renew for another 20 turns, up until Turn 100? I mean, it's unlikely we're going to be in a position to fight one another anyway, but the extra security (and no worker steals from either side!) is nice to have in place.

Good luck cracking the walls of Athens!
Sullla
The Killer Angels

[athlete4life10]

An e-mail from Greece to CoW:

Hey all,

Sorry for taking a while to chip in. I've been waiting for India to accept a NAP, but I think it's pretty clear now that their NAP offer to me is just a decoy and their real goal is to attack me once they've signed NAPs with each of you. While 24 turn military build up might sound good from your point of view, it also means that India will have 24 turns to eliminate me.

Recently they've activated military wise. They've researched archery and started whipping units. There's now some axemen and chariots running around. They've set their research to 100% commerce. Atm they have 5 cities and I saw a settler ready for the sixth one. They'll probably have around 10 cities at turn 100 or even more if they manage to capture mine. They have copper, horses and iron all near their capital. They might be easy to pillage atm if we had troops, but by turn 100 they'll probably have alot more cities to surround those resources.

Things look very bad. Hopefully my heavy whipping of defensive units will make them change their minds and not attack me. I think we've lost all surprise factor.. either there's a leak who's telling them everything or they simply saw it coming. Me and Mali had planned an attack earlier, but I doubt that's possible anymore and Mali wants to wait till turn 100 anyway.

We can't do this half-assed. If we actually want to hurt India and have any chance of winning this game, each of us has to actually come with as good troops as possible, not just send in a warrior or two you don't need anymore.

Questions, comments?
~ Jowy

Wow. This e-mail certainly puts a damper on things. That they have 5 cities and a 6th on it's way is extremely disconcerting. Also he makes it seem like they'll run right over him which is disturbing. At the very least he's going to need to hold out until Mali and HRE can attack from that side. I'm thinking we will need to send our battle hardened units to Greece straight away keeping 1 or 2 chariots for ourselves. And then actually build more for the T100 strike, possibly attacking their backside via galley. We will certainly need to look into this more.

[athlete4life10]

My response to the CoW:

Hello Everybody,

Well that looks a little disturbing. The biggest thing I can suggest is do your best to not give any ground whatsoever. If you can hold out perhaps Romali and the HRE can communicate closely and attack at the same time from the South. I believe Romali has an NAP that ends T90. Is there any chance the both of you would have 5-7 Units each ready by that time? If not it would be best for the both of you to wait for us and the Galactic Empire on T100.

Also given that they are currently on 100% commerce, I'd bet the farm they will head for construction once they have enough gold. I recall reading something by Sullla once that a no tech trading game in it's early stages is a race to construction. Also we had an ingame chat yesterday and as we discussed our war with Byzantine I downplayed our timetable for attack and he said you basically need catapults to crack cities stuffed with Archers. So by T100 expect to see the first few catapults wandering around Indian soil. We shall probably be bringing a lot of Horse Archers to the party anyways, so don't despair yet Jowy. If they declare anytime soon, just keep your cool and hold on. Attack their stacks when you can, and hold up in your cities when you can't. Some of their power spike is going to be from discovering Mathematics and Archery so just because they have some initial stronger units running around doesn't give them a stack to run in and attack.

As for a leak, I highly doubt there is one. The 2 running the show in India probably know more about this game and MP play than all of us put together so don't be surprised that they decided to stop running a paper thin military when they've got neighbours with good power ratings and neither wants a long term NAP. They have such a high understanding of how to use the graphs and demographics that to have them understand they need to keep a respectable defence shouldn't be unexpected.

If anything this news should help us recognize we need to come even tighter together as a group, and communicate quite well in order to keep India in check. We must put all effort into organizing a sound plan to which will hurt India greatly.

Athlete for A/K
Ottomans