American Politics Discussion Thread

[darrelljs]

I have a question for you ipecac, what do you define as western? Where do you see Romania as?

Liberalism, with the avowed extreme focus on freedom and equality. I don't know anything about Romania. The vampire country?

Are there any parts of Liberalism that you think could improve the lives of non-westerners if adapted & adopted?  Do you think the average Hong Kong resident will be better off after China imposes their system over the one that evolved from British colonialism?

Darrell

[Miguelito]

Not to interrupt the more philosophical discussion, but if Trump is incapacitated and Pence takes over, can he still tiebreak in the senate/ towhom would that power pass over?

[ipecac]

Are there any parts of Liberalism that you think could improve the lives of non-westerners if adapted & adopted?

No, it's not a buffet where you can pick what you like and leave out what you dislike. For example, the political system inevitably becomes gutter politics, with gutter media, and massive division in society. Then the collapse, as the democracy ends and some dictator takes over. This is accelerated by bad economic times as in Germany's first democratic phase, and slowed down by prosperity. But it's inevitable.

Who are the two biggest promoters of democracy? The UK and the US, and recent events there are a good warning of how things will end.

 

Do you think the average Hong Kong resident will be better off after China imposes their system over the one that evolved from British colonialism?

Oligarch co-rule with the British empire -> oligarch rule -> oligarch co-rule with China? No real difference for the average worker.

But China can destroy Hong Kong's economy easily, therefore Hong Kong will never seriously revolt. That's real and concrete power, and therefore freedom and equality for Hong Kong are just dreams.

[ipecac]

Bernie with a heart attack, Trump with corona, neoliberal with dementia. This election is a bad sequel.

Or, in 2018, about a huge caravan of so-called refugees who were really a bunch of terrorists and disease carriers. Strange how the latter story completely disappeared right after the election.

This always felt particularly strange to me, from a non-American perspective. Like, even if it had actually been a problem, do Trump voters simply think the caravan disappeared after the election?

New Migrant Caravan From Honduras Heads Toward U.S. Border

[darrelljs]

No, it's not a buffet where you can pick what you like and leave out what you dislike. For example, the political system inevitably becomes gutter politics, with gutter media, and massive division in society. Then the collapse, as the democracy ends and some dictator takes over. This is accelerated by bad economic times as in Germany's first democratic phase, and slowed down by prosperity. But it's inevitable.

I'm hopeful it's a cycle and not a downward spiral, though I suppose there isn't enough history to judge yet.  Where does Singapore fit?  They've adopted much from the Age of Enlightenment, not so much liberalism?

Who are the two biggest promoters of democracy? The UK and the US, and recent events there are a good warning of how things will end.

I was asking about Liberalism and not Democracy .  Germany would be the best exporter of Liberal ideas right now I guess?  Tell someone in 1940 that would be the case...see it's not always a downward spiral  .  I'd say the US is the biggest promoter of capitalism, most of the time democracy comes along for the ride and the PR value.

Darrell

[Cyneheard]

Not to interrupt the more philosophical discussion,  but if Trump is incapacitated and Pence takes over,  can he still tiebreak in the senate/ towhom would that power pass over?

That's a very good question. The 25th Amendment isn't particularly clear on this front, and I think you can make a case either way.

If Trump dies, Pence would not be the Vice President any more, so he wouldn't be able to tiebreak. And with the VP vacant, there wouldn't be anyone until a new VP was approved. I think the Democrats would approve a VP replacement fairly quickly if they were at all competent/sane (probably a GOP Gov? They're not going to put a Senator temporarily in the VP slot because that doesn't solve their 50+1 problem).

If that's before the election, the RNC would legally have flexibility on who replaces Trump at the top of the ticket, but they'd make Pence the candidate - again, "who's the VP" becomes an open question, and it plausibly could be someone who isn't the "nominated VP for the last two months of the year".

[suboptimal]

Not to interrupt the more philosophical discussion,  but if Trump is incapacitated and Pence takes over,  can he still tiebreak in the senate/ towhom would that power pass over?

That's a very good question. The 25th Amendment isn't particularly clear on this front, and I think you can make a case either way.

It is likely that Pence would still be the tiebreak vote in the Senate if he assumed the presidency via Section 3 (temporary incapacitation) or Section 4 (VP/executive offer declaration of unfitness).  Both sections are relatively clear that the powers of the presidency are discharged "by the Vice President as Acting President."  Pence would still be the VP and have all the duties of that office.

[ipecac]

I was asking about Liberalism and not Democracy

Mass suffrage democracy is one of the key parts of today's liberalism.

I'm hopeful it's a cycle and not a downward spiral, though I suppose there isn't enough history to judge yet.

The cycle is a downward, democracy spiralling downwards was known to antiquity. It's only a 'cycle' because rebuilding is possible after the crash, but that usually happens after tyranny/anarchy, chaos and mass deaths. Your Founders were very explicitly against democracy and mass voting for this reason.

Where does Singapore fit?

We get away with illiberalism because like the Sauds, we're a friend of the US

Germany would be the best exporter of Liberal ideas right now I guess?

Germany doesn't actually care about exporting liberalism because they're busy trying to dominate Europe as always. For show the government will make some noise about Hong Kong or Tibet or Rohingya, but they don't actually care. As a rule, caring about liberalism in other countries is limited to Anglos and those immersed in Anglo culture.

[Charriu]

Germany would be the best exporter of Liberal ideas right now I guess?

Germany doesn't actually care about exporting liberalism because they're busy trying to dominate Europe as always. For show they'll make some noise about Hong Kong or Tibet or Rohingya, but they don't actually care. As a rule, caring about liberalism in other countries is limited to Anglos and those immersed in Anglo culture.

I would say Germany had some pretty bad experiences with "exporting" some of their ideas to other countries

[ipecac]

I would say Germany had some pretty bad experiences with "exporting" some of their ideas to other countries

It's the same for France. Warfare turned out badly, domination through 'peaceful' bureaucracy is the way forward.

They're still trying to unify and dominate Europe, and the UK to divide Europe. Nothing really changes.