[SPOILERS] Iskender and the Sidar

[TheBagelProblem]

Hey wait a minute, I'm not just any other bagel, I'm The Bagel...

[Iskender]

Second cities begin to appear. Bob is the first one with 2nd city, founding on turn 38, Square Leg will soon follow:



Five flood plains. Ouch. At least there's no Gold/Incense in the BFC (I hope). My 2nd city should be founded in 2 turns.


Trardoc rejected my offer to hit the Dwarves:

[COLOR="Orange"]Hi invisible man,

You are correct that the Clowns are organizing an effort to box us in. This obviously makes for tension in our region, and based on this uncertainty I am forced to inform you that the Clan will, for the present moment, not be participating in a coordinated effort against the Luchuirp. Although we could stand to gain land, it would tie up resources that could be needed elsewhere.

I will, however, agree to a Worldspell-NAP between the Sidar and the Clan of Embers.

Our scouting intel has so far not discovered any Barrows close to Balseraph lands, but we have only approached them from the West. There could very well be one or more to the North or East of their capital. What did you have in mind?
[/COLOR]

Too bad, makes the Luchuirp the #1 problem. At least I should be safe from For the Horde.

My mess-up-with-Bob (or someone else) plan explained:

[COLOR="Silver"]Do we want to make a detailed agreement about the world spells or follow to the spirit of not using one's world spell to harm the other? I think the latter is OK.

Are there any barrows within your territory that are close to Balseraph lands? Here's what I have in mind (explained with the precision of a mathematical formula):




Could be fun.

Iskender
[/COLOR]

C&D: I was wrong about everyone beelining Calendar. I'm receiving an extra known-tech bonus beaker if I set research to Crafting. The known tech bonus in a 6-player game is:

1 player knows the tech: 1% bonus
2 players know the tech: 3% bonus
3 players know the tech: 5% bonus
4 players know the tech: 6% bonus
5 players know the tech: 8% bonus

With a raw output of 21 beakers I must be receiving a +5% bonus, meaning that 3 players that I have contact with already discovered Crafting. Sareln is out - his civics switches prove he went Agriculture->Calendar->Mysticism, I haven't made contact with Bob yet, so the bonus doesn't apply.

That leaves Square Leg (obviously), Trardoc and Serdoa. That Calendar that I believed the Clan researched ultra fast was in fact Crafting. The Clan has recently discovered another, ~200 beaker tech, probably Mining, which sets them solidly on a copper-augmented warrior/axeman rush path.

Serdoa's Crafting indicates that he might be interested in early Pyre Zombies.

Conclusion: at least three players focused on getting their 2nd tier units as soon as possible and I'm beelining Agristocracy.

[Iskender]

Finally I explained Sareln what's the 'extra bit' I'd like to get in exchange for an NAP. I'd like him to help me train wannabe Shades. Initially I wanted to make this offer to Serdoa (he's got Death mana in the Palace), but alas, he's not my neighbour.

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey Sareln

Sorry for keeping you waiting in suspense regarding that NAP. When I wrote that it would benefit you more I had my world spell in mind. An NAP between us shields you from its effects and forces me to to use it either against the Clan (foolhardy) or the Dwarves (got Construction already). I appreciate your generous land division and your not opening the Pyre, but there's one more thing I'd like to ask for:

I'd like you to throw fireballs at me.

I plan to eventually have some Shades but getting units to 26xp takes a lot of time. If I'm correct it takes arcane and divine units about 70 turns on average to naturally reach 26xp. It's way too long, so I'm looking for any means to speed it up. Succesfully defending vs a fireball gives unit one experience point and that's where you would come in. You would dedicate a few of your future Firebows (could be even city garrison) and throw fireballs at my troops every turn, which they would gracefully dodge.

That's my plan. If you want to get Sorcery before Bowyers we could do the same with summons instead of fireballs, ie. with skeleton training dummies. In this variant I could also summon dummies to be devastated by your units, so both sides would benefit the same - I'd get my Shades and you'd get super-experienced units. Regardless of which variant you'd choose I'd make up for your effort ie. by delivering resources or gc.[/COLOR]

Took a peek at Luchuirp second city. Lots of Flood Plains, but little production tiles. It's relieving to see he's not bent on making a super early rush (I guess he would have chosen a more productive spot If he had been).


My second city is founded next turn at the '1' spot:



'2', '3', and '4' will probably move or swap places.

[Iskender]

Oop Be Gone founded. The city is so awesome that it made a lizardman (visible at the bottom of the screen) run away EOT.




Getting close to signing an NAP with Sareln.

[COLOR="Magenta"]
Hey Iskender,

That's an interesting deal you propose there. For starters though,
have you considered the idea that your worldspell might have use
beyond the early game? I know that in PBEM1 Bob did not get his own
source of detection for a very long time, and I could see someone in
this game making a similar error. Invisible units pillaging lands is
nothing to be scoffed at, but I'll admit I'm not too worried. I'm not
that long off from having detection available and ready for use in the
field.

I'm curious how we would work out a compensation plan for me to throw
fireballs at you for training when we're at war, since we won't be
able to do trades without forcing in a 10-turn minimum peace treaty
each time we pause. Have you thought up a way around that yet? I am
most certainly interested in the fire mana that you'll be gaining from
the Pyre of the Seraphic, and water mana if you can come up with it
somehow.

It's an interesting idea, and I'd certainly be interested if we can
flesh out a few of those details.

The Clan settled North, just south of the Dragon Bones, btw. It's a
nice site which grabs something like 3 sugars as well as the Ivory
from the bones. It also cuts off the particular chokepoint. I'm hoping
to find another landbridge further south, but we'll see how the map
turns out I guess.

Here are the terms of the NAP and Settling agreement I drafted up.
Are these alright?

NAP Terms: NAP until T100 with notice to begin renewal discussions on
or around T85.

Settling Agreement:

I want the rights to the following city sites, which will establish
the Northern Border of the Amurite kingdom with regard to the Sidar.

Site 1 (Red): Directly to the left of the mountain south of the rice.
I think you have vision on it from your visit to the Mirror of Heaven.
The BFC of this city does not interfere with your flood plain designs,
I'm pretty sure.

Site 2 (Blue): Two tiles to the left of the Mirror itself. The BFC's
of these two cities will not interfere with your planned southern
city's flood plains.

Site 3 (Green): I might want to add a city on the plains hill where
there is currently a lizardman lair eventually, later in the game.

See the attached picture for these three sites explicitly laid out. I
reserve the right to change the left/right positioning of these
cities, but not to move them any further north without prior agreement
from the Sidar. The orange dot is where the Clan planted their first
city.

In return, you will not plant cities which do not overlap the BFC's of
these sites, and kindly to refrain from settling great artists or
culture bombing along the border .

Let me know if you have any comments.

Sincerely,

Sareln[/COLOR]

In reply I bombarded him with some of my ideas:

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey

That's a very nice spot for the Clan. I hope that at least all the sugars are jungled...

I've added my suggested cities' BFCs to your map:

http://i55.tinypic.com/2gycdfq.jpg

There is one tile of overlap between each pair, but I think it doesn't make any difference if we agree not to push culture in border cities. If you accept the above division I'm ready to sign the NAP.

If we sign the NAP i have a few more offers for you to consider:

Once you settle by that river in your east we could trade Cotton for Silk. Also, we could try to make a joint effort to enhance our defenses - we could share Bronze Weapons, Body Mana and Enchantment Mana to make Hasted-EB-BW Warriors that noone messes with. I'll be getting Mining to grab the Gold, so I could get Bronze Working as well, provided there's Copper somewhere in my lands. If you like the idea we could work out the details.


Going back the training deal: you're right, war would exclude any permanent resource trade. Instead, I could offer the following:

- a lump sum of gc
- short-term resource (ie. mana) offer - it could be terminated after a few turns by declaring war. I think it can done in a cyclic fashion - if we sign a cease fire, without any concessions from either side, we could make a trade and then redeclare without having to wait 10 turns.
- training your own units on my dummies

I'm okay with lending fire mana or any other kind if I can get it, or with paying in gc, but we need to agree how to exchange these for experience points. It's an uncharted territory for both of us so lets just pull some numbers out of a hat and see where it gets us:

1gc = 1xp - you'd be getting 1gc for summoning a fireball and it'd cost me 26gc to get a Shade from scratch. Inflation adjusted, so it'll be more like 1.5gc if we finally manage to pull it off

mana node = 100-300xp depending on the mana. With the above xp/gc rate it makes mana worth 150-450gc with inflation.[/COLOR]

[Ilios]

Care to explain your reasoning behind the second city's placement?


Thanks!

[Thoth]

ICS?

[Iskender]

Care to explain your reasoning behind the second city's placement?

Hey Ilios


As far as I'm concerned it was a choice between this site and the flood plains in the south ('2' on the dotmap). I chose '1' because:

• it will share already farmed flood plains and grasslands with the capital and grow into usefulness within several turns. While it's growing the worker will farm another tiles for capital to work
  
• the location is in a relatively safe - all the barbarians came from the east and south so far, so I could move the settler without a proper escort gaining 2-3 turns plus 1 turn for shorter distance vs the southern spot.
  

So it's all about snowballing. In five turns I'll have a size 3 city ready to start building a second worker vs a size 1 city with a worker starting irrigating flood plains. The overlap is huge yes, but I don't really mind that. Specialists should help to cope with it.



Sareln accepted the land division. Thus:

The Sidar and Amurites have an NAP until turn 100.

The rest of both messages is us working out the details of the training deal.

[COLOR="Magenta"]Iskender,

This division is acceptable to me. NAP and settlement plans will be
honored by the Amurites.

One of the Clan's sugars is unjungled, the rest have jungles on them.

Cotton for silk is something I will happily do once we establish a
trade network. If you find doubles of another happy resource, I have
found a doubled-wine to my south that I'd be willing to trade as well.

Mutual defensive resource trading is also a good idea. Let's revisit
this once one of us has visibility on copper or are building adepts
(Enchantment/Body mana swaps).

The rest of this e-mail regards the details of the training deal:

I think your pricing on the mana is a bit high . 100 xp is nearly 4
great people, 300 xp is nearly 12. That's quite a bit for a handful of
turns of mana with which to make adept/mage upgrades. I'd be more
likely to value mana quite a bit lower. Following the rules of halves,
I think it more likely that mana is worth between 50 ~ 150 xp. Notice
that I've listed mana in terms of xp, I'm also about to argue for a
different GC:XP conversion rate.

For the xp -> gold conversion, keep in mind that great merchants allow
you to transmute 26 xp into 9 gpt (settle in a God-King capital,
ignoring other gold modifiers that you'll get later on, especially
since one of us will need currency to do trades), so after you settle
the great merchant he'll pay himself off in about 3 turns under the
1:1 rate. I'd like a better deal on that, perhaps 45 gc per 26 xp base
(GM profit after 5 turns)?

That's about 1.7 gc/xp pre-inflation, so factor in the inflation
modifier and turn that into maybe 2.5 gc/xp? That way you'd still be
in the black after 7-8 turns, faster as you get more gold modifiers in
your capital. Since you've stated that it would take your units ~70
turns with passive XP, I think you're still getting a pretty solid
boost with 26+8 = 34 turns total for each Shade to show profit (since
self-raised shades start generating profit immediately).

Are there any assumptions that I'm missing that make the 3 paragraphs
above a load of bull? I think I've gotten the calculations
more-or-less right.

Sincerely,[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey

And thus the great Amurite and Sidar civilizations enter a long period of mutual friendship and prosperity!

I have those double Furs up north, should have them connected within a couple dozen turns.


Continuing the training deal:

In my first message I ignored the various other costs of getting a Shade. I still need to build a unit and pay it's upkeep until it reaches 26xp, which should take more than 26 turns due to necessary healing between fights. In fact, getting Shades from scratch this way could be barely profitable compared to conventional means of developing economy, so I'd probably have to combine this training with other means of getting xp (passive, civics, war).

How about a flat rate of 2gc per 1xp? This way the sooner we get the deal going the more you get from it. In case inflation gets out of hand (ie. it's more than 150%) we could increase it to 3gc/1xp.

You're probably right about mana, 12 great people is quite a lot. Let's cut it in half then, but keep the upper limit open in case we're make a longer deal - ie. me delivering mana for one of the Towers after the training is complete.

Iskender[/COLOR]

The end of turn witnessed a brave escape of Grumpy, a Luchuirp warrior, from lion's claws



Watch the Defender trait in action!

[Iskender]

I'll be economical with screenshots in this update, most of them are in a mess right now, scattered over a few machines. Sorry 4 dat.

What's up in the Sidarland:




Oop Be Gone completed the second worker. Both workers are now constructing farms on grasslands and will build a few cottages next. The third settler will be ready in about 7 turns.

Code of Laws will be completed on turn 53. I delayed it a bit to get the 3rd settler faster. Two turns of stockpiling cash and a +40 gold event increased my gold reserves to almost 100 (note to self: save a few more gc to have the full 100+inflation in case of the settler event)


Now what's new in dealings between the Sidar and the rest of Erebus:

First, Sheaim:

Have you noticed a Great Merchant in the above screenshot? The story is simple - I guided Serdoa's scout to Amurite lands and he explored a barrow on the way. Which is irritating. Nevermind the results, it's the loss of easy source of xp that bothers me. I considered sending two warriors to get rid of both Serdoa's Scout and the Merchant, but the Scout was dangerously close to the Pyre, so I sent this:

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey

Congratulations on getting that Merchant. I'd appreciate if you left the Pyre unexplored, it might go KA-BOOM.[/COLOR]

Serdoa replied with these, moved merchant into my capital and the scout off the Pyre somewhere into the fog.

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Hi Iskender,

I won't explore the Pyre. I had the Sepulcher next to me and it got explored by the Dwarves - not something I feel should be done if you want good relations between each other.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Hi Iskender,

I have moved my Great Merchant to you as I doubt I can get him safely home. I would like to see if a trade mission at this point in time makes any sense - if not I probably bulb with him or try to get him home anyway. Of course I won't sell the map info I've got to anyone.

Kind regards,
Serdoa
[/COLOR]

I think that the only thing that stopped me from attacking the GM, whatever happens to the Pyre, is a possible training deal with Serdoa involving Skeletons as training dummies. There's still a chance that Serdoa will utilize the GM and then explore the Pyre anyway.


Balseraphs:

Stinky Socks met them south of the Luchuirp lands. We had a brief chat with Bob instead of exchanging greetings. He believes that there's lot of land separated from the main continent and that half of the Clan's worldspell units appeared in this "New World". I'm sceptical. There seem tobe some islands or an island most likely with Acheron, but most of the 800+ tiles seems to form the main continent.


The Clan:

I'm NAPped vs their world spell, so didn't have to worry too much about the ~40k soldier increase. Saw a Clan C2 Wolf Rider north to the Balseraphs.


Amurites:

Sareln accepted my 2gc/xp rate in the training deal. I told him about my worldspell NAP with the Clan and the Wolf Rider in the east.

[COLOR="Silver"]I wanted to share this with you once we have a NAP so here it goes: I have a world spell NAP with the Clan. Initially I made the Clan an offer to coordinate our world spells and target one player. They suggested Amurites, which I refused and suggested the Luchuirp instead, which in turn was rejected by Trardoc who claimed they need to take care of 'tensions in the south' first. As a result the idea was abandoned, but we agreed not to use our world spells against each other (but please keep it between us).

I don't think there's an immediate threat from the Clan. They probably want to research Bronze Working and maybe Masonry before switching to military mode, which means at least a dozen more turns before they start producing military, more if they also want to use Warrens.

My scout spotted a C2 Clan Wolf Rider 10 tiles south of Luchuirp lands. Do you think they might have a business in the south, maybe connected with Bob's effort to box them in?
[/COLOR]

He's been quiet since then. Maybe he disapproves my dealings with the Clan, or just didn't have anything to write.


Luchuirp:

Square Leg asked me to finish off the injured Lion. I did it, reluctantly.


Then I was visited by a ninja dwarf who offered a settling agreement.

[COLOR="Sienna"]You had been watching for quite a long time... It kept darting from one pillar to another and doing commando rolls periodically. Dressed in black with a bandanna of brown, it looked more like a cannonball rather than a ninja or spy as it waddled forward and back across the courtyard.

As it approached your desk you could hear the scrunch of something eating... really?! These Dwarf's weren't really that clever are they? The Dwarf snuck a piece of paper onto your desk and hid behind another pillar.

"Tee hee" was the noise the pillar made...

With that noise the object rolled across the room and lept for the window only to find it was closed, and made of strong glass.

"for the love of...?!?!?" the dwarf yelled.

It gathered itself thinking it hadn't been seen and ran towards the door to the courtyard, giggling and eating still.

With a sigh you pick up the scrap of paper and begin to read it.

Well that was embarrassing but I'm afraid he insisted on trying to reach you incognito... please excuse my messenger, if he isn't throwing shoes he is running around the palace pretending he has more grace than swan. Did he do the commando rolls? I bet he did. I'm really sorry, it must have been cringe-worthy to watch. We all know us Dwarf's are not the most inconspicuous, I hope you weren't insulted.

I write to you to ask if you would like to agree a settling agreement for the land between us? There is a large lake it would seem that divides us and so I don't see that there should be much difficulty in agreeing on a border?

If you are willing to negotiate at this stage I will send a map. I'll ask him to use the door next time."[/COLOR]

I'm very okay with the Luchuirp getting the east of the lake between us, including Patria, considering their Construction beeline, building Scultptor Studio and what looks like two Wood Golems already. I tried to tie the settlement deal with a NAP.

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey Square Leg

(OOC this time, but hats off to ninja dwarves!)

I think the lake between us would make a good division point. We can split the northern causeway in half, which would give you Patria and tiles around it.

If we manage to avoid any disputes over the division of land we might discuss a possible non agression pact to focus on more pressing issues (ie. the Clan)[/COLOR]

Apparently it worked:

[COLOR="Sienna"]Hi Iskender,

Sure - that sounds absolutely fine. You get the deer and everything the otherside of the lake obviously.

If you are happy - I'd sign a NAP until T75. Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
SL
[/COLOR]

T75 is not far from now, this NAP could be more like a military buildup pact for Square Leg. Still, I'm not complaining. When I convert to Aristocracy it'll become obvious that I'm running a serious farmer's gambit and I'd really like to be safeguarded by a NAP then.

Still, let's try to get a few more turns of the NAP. I reckon there's little chance SL would accept a NAP until turn 75 and reject the one until T80. If he comes in peace then he won't mind 5 more turns of it and if he wants to do a military build-up he'll agree in order not to look suspicious. For me 5 more turns mean getting closer to Enchanted Blade Copper Warriors, assuming the defensive deal with Sareln works.

[COLOR="Silver"]Hey

Allright, I'll take the deer, my culture will probably extend a tile east of it, but I guess that's not an issue. How about a more round number for the NAP, ie. turn 80? Also, while we're at that, are you at good terms with the Sheaim? Serdoa's scout just explored a barrow near my borders, which I didn't really find amusing. If you are at good terms then please disregard that last part, i'm just fishing for opportunities.

Iskender[/COLOR]

I am fishing for opportunities, particularly for opportunities to turn my neighbours' attention away from me. According to Serdoa there is some beef between the Sheaim and the Luchuirp because of exploring the Sepulcher, let's see if Square Leg bites.

[Iskender]

A brief update on domestic affairs:

Turn 54:

Discovered Code of Laws and switched to Aristocracy and Apprenticeship. Next research: Mysticism.


An explanation why I preferred Aristocracy over God King even in this early stage:



Yup, that's it: three 2-hammer tiles near the capital versus gazillion farmable grasslands and FPs.



Turn 56:

Nowhere, city #3 was founded east of the Pyre. Amazingly, the only unfogged tile in the city's BFC turned out to be Incense




And my splending army of five:

[Ilios]

So, what's the plan now?