Get Rich or Die Tryin': HidingKneel and Mardoc tackle the Khazad (Spoilers!)

[HidingKneel]

Unless there's food to the south, I actually disagree here. An Oasis and a Cow isn't really enough food, not even if we can add in 2 grass farms.

With a happy cap of 4, I disagree: with a cow farm and grass farm we can grow to the happy cap quickly (8 turns), at which point we can just work one farm, a gold mine, and two other mines. With our Ind trait, mines are better than farms for pumping out workers, and we can never have too much commerce.

However, another turn of exploration renders the point moot:



Gold site comes with its own grasslands corn .

On the northern end of the world, Dewey located... nothing much:



We could put a city on that forested hill at some point. Second border pop in the capital will grab the rice, sheep are in the first ring, and some grass farms. Nothing terribly compelling, though.

We got our first border pop at EOT, revealing some of the land to our north:



Need to see more. The hill north of the mana node looks possible, but I think that's jungle to the north...

Edit: Oh, also, I haven't been getting the saves. Not likely to matter yet, but it would be nice to be able to turn on resources bubbles while I look around .

I'll bug Yell0w about it.

Dwarven vaults: low.

[HidingKneel]

Ah... I see the confusion. I was playing with my original sandbox, rather than the actual land. In the sandbox, the cows are next to the oasis and can provide a 5-food tile for the new city to work. Without a tile like that, I agree it would not be so great as a second city location. But with grasslands corn, I think we're good.

[HidingKneel]

Made a new sandbox with the information I've learned about the land.

Playing around a little, I'm pretty sure the code of laws beeline is a bad idea. We can get it by turn 40, but at that point we probably won't even have a third city yet. And like you said: we've sitting on a lot of commerce already, what we really need is to rapidly shoot out settlers and workers. For that, we'd probably do better to pick up mysticism (for god king) and animal husbandry (to work cows by capital, cows up north, sheep to the west).

[Mardoc]

I knew I should have waited to speak up until the scouting was finished! Yes, with corn on top, this is the obvious 2nd city site. I like the plains hill best myself, on 2 minutes thought (really want to either open a save or have you turn on resource bubbles, though).

With a happy cap of 4

Surely we'll at least have gems hooked by the time city 2 is at its cap? Not that 5 and a corn available really changes your point, this is a quibble.

Playing around a little, I'm pretty sure the code of laws beeline is a bad idea. We can get it by turn 40, but at that point we probably won't even have a third city yet. And like you said: we've sitting on a lot of commerce already, what we really need is to rapidly shoot out settlers and workers. For that, we'd probably do better to pick up mysticism (for god king) and animal husbandry (to work cows by capital, cows up north, sheep to the west).

In general I agree. We'll want aristocracy early, yes, but not quite *that* early.

The cows are sharable, too. I like Animal Husbandry first, (after Mining/Exploration, of course), therefore. Direct boost to foodhammers, in tiles we'll certainly want to work, and tiles that we'll be able to work immediately. And hey, maybe we get a tile turned into horse somewhere, too.

I'm torn on Mysticism. On the one hand, I'm not convinced that God King will pay much for us. Our capital is very food/commerce heavy, but not particularly hammer intensive. And we don't intend to run a low slider until after we're into Aristocracy, really. I'm not sure it's worth the anarchy, let alone anarchy + research time.

On the other hand, an early Academy would be excellent. Gems, Incense, Oasis, a couple farms, and of course a Great Sage - this is a lot of commerce to multiply. It'll only get better once we can grow onto a lot of aristofarms.

And I know Myst is a prereq for at least two techs we'll want later: Philosophy for Bone Palace (we have Marble, Industrious) and Way of the Earthmother, so it's not a dead end regardless.

Depending on how the scouting goes, another high priority tech is whatever it takes to get a little more happiness. I don't think Hunting is worth it just for the deer, but if you find ivory and/or furs, it'll be worth it for those. Happiness is also a reason for pushing Kilmorph early.

Good news is, the gold is making me less nervous about delaying the military techs as you initially proposed, because it'll be accelerating our whole tech schedule .

Finally, a totally unrelated note: My time zone and schedule is considerably ahead of yours. For most purposes, this will be irrelevant. I considered offering to play the turn these early turns, but as best I can tell from the setup thread, that would just mean it sits longer in the next player's inbox. What might maybe be relevant, though, are that I can look at the save and make comments before you play (apparently the tracker's fixed now ). So I'll aim to do that when possible. Won't be relevant when the biggest decision is where to move the scouts next, but when we get into a war it might be.

Also, maybe-perhaps I could play the first couple turns of a blitz, with directions, and you could take over once you wake. But I don't think this is likely to work, because I can't make the upcoming blitz time, and then I'm on vacation, and after that it'll probably be deep enough into the game that blitzes stop happening.

Dunno, is there anything you can think of to leverage timezones? I can't really see anything beyond the chance to comment before you play a turn.

[HidingKneel]

I knew I should have waited to speak up until the scouting was finished! Yes, with corn on top, this is the obvious 2nd city site. I like the plains hill best myself, on 2 minutes thought (really want to either open a save or have you turn on resource bubbles, though).

Bah. Resource bubbles. You sound just like Merovech!

Surely we'll at least have gems hooked by the time city 2 is at its cap? Not that 5 and a corn available really changes your point, this is a quibble.

We'll have the gems hooked but the vaults empty = . The curse of playing the Khazad.

The cows are sharable, too. I like Animal Husbandry first, (after Mining/Exploration, of course), therefore. Direct boost to foodhammers, in tiles we'll certainly want to work, and tiles that we'll be able to work immediately. And hey, maybe we get a tile turned into horse somewhere, too.

Dunno... pastured cows are what, 6 foodhammers? We can get 4 foodhammers and 1 commerce by working a riverside farm instead. I'm not sure the difference is enough to justify animal husbandry as a top priority (definitely an early priority, but it'll pay much more once we get access to the other cow and the sheep).

I'm torn on Mysticism. On the one hand, I'm not convinced that God King will pay much for us. Our capital is very food/commerce heavy, but not particularly hammer intensive. And we don't intend to run a low slider until after we're into Aristocracy, really. I'm not sure it's worth the anarchy, let alone anarchy + research time.

Depends how long we're going to stay there. Hammerwise, God King will pay for itself almost immediately. Commerce-wise, it doesn't pay much at first but will make a difference once we get a couple of cities up. I'm pretty sure it'll be worth the anarchy if we're not beelining aristocracy.

On the other hand, an early Academy would be excellent. Gems, Incense, Oasis, a couple farms, and of course a Great Sage - this is a lot of commerce to multiply. It'll only get better once we can grow onto a lot of aristofarms.

We need to decide at some point whether we want an early academy or a bard to bulb drama. In the second case, we'll want Festivals fairly early to get started. Don't have to decide yet... but by turn 24, at least.

Depending on how the scouting goes, another high priority tech is whatever it takes to get a little more happiness. I don't think Hunting is worth it just for the deer, but if you find ivory and/or furs, it'll be worth it for those.

Well, we've already found ivory: three tiles north of the capital. Likely we should grab that with city #3. Hunting's expensive, though: almost expensive as Kilmorph, and (at this point) not worth as much. I think religion's a better bet (more time-sensitive, too: Kilmorph's a popular religion, and given our culture issues it might be handy to land the holy city).

Finally, a totally unrelated note: My time zone and schedule is considerably ahead of yours. For most purposes, this will be irrelevant. I considered offering to play the turn these early turns, but as best I can tell from the setup thread, that would just mean it sits longer in the next player's inbox. What might maybe be relevant, though, are that I can look at the save and make comments before you play (apparently the tracker's fixed now ). So I'll aim to do that when possible. Won't be relevant when the biggest decision is where to move the scouts next, but when we get into a war it might be.

Sure, knock yourself out. Password is "Arturus". When I get home, I can also upload a copy of my sandbox in case you want to play around with it.

Dunno, is there anything you can think of to leverage timezones? I can't really see anything beyond the chance to comment before you play a turn.

Well, we actually did manage two turns yesterday. Not sure if that's a fluke or will be a general pattern, but if the pace keeps up it might be useful to have either of us able to grab it. Though it's not long now before I move back to EST, in any case.

[Mardoc]

We need to decide at some point whether we want an early academy or a bard to bulb drama. In the second case, we'll want Festivals fairly early to get started. Don't have to decide yet... but by turn 24, at least.

Well. Drama is 600 beakers, which means 500 base beakers required. Assume by the time Academy is in, we're working at least gems (7) + incense (7) + oasis (2) + corn farm (1) + center tile (1) + Palace (8) + Elder Council + GSage (6) = 34 bpt. So the Academy is 17 bpt = 29.4 turn payback period. Less obvious than I'd hoped - normally I prefer under 20 turns for payback, but confounding variables exist: 500 beakers into more flexible techs, elder council is better than a Carnival (and sage beakers better than extra capital culture), Academy gets better as the capital does. On the other side of the scale, beakers upfront are worth more, both Drama and Sanitation fit a REX gameplan well, and Academy is worth less once the slider starts to fall.

I don't think either is obviously better, but I lean a bit toward the bard, actually. Which surprises me, I thought with a capital this lush, the Academy would win.

Well, we've already found ivory: three tiles north of the capital. Likely we should grab that with city #3. Hunting's expensive, though: almost expensive as Kilmorph, and (at this point) not worth as much. I think religion's a better bet (more time-sensitive, too: Kilmorph's a popular religion, and given our culture issues it might be handy to land the holy city).

Worth is hard to quantify. Hunting gives only one happy (assuming furs are far), but it gives that to all cities with just a few worker turns, not 80-120 hammers/city investment and anarchy and such, like Kilmorph. Can we have both?

I suppose Kilmorph early is good not only for the holy city, but also for potential free spreads. And with gems everywhere, you're right, it'll be in high demand.

Sure, knock yourself out. Password is "Arturus".

Should have realized

When I get home, I can also upload a copy of my sandbox in case you want to play around with it.

Yes, please.

Well, we actually did manage two turns yesterday. Not sure if that's a fluke or will be a general pattern, but if the pace keeps up it might be useful to have either of us able to grab it. Though it's not long now before I move back to EST, in any case.

Up to you. This is your game, after all, I don't want to steal your fun.

[HidingKneel]

but confounding variables exist: 500 beakers into more flexible techs, elder council is better than a Carnival (and sage beakers better than extra capital culture), Academy gets better as the capital does. On the other side of the scale, beakers upfront are worth more, both Drama and Sanitation fit a REX gameplan well, and Academy is worth less once the slider starts to fall.

Other confounding variables: it's worth something to make sure no one else can get the drama bard. And the flip side of that: if we don't manage to land it, we might end up with a carnival we didn't need, or a great person we have no use for.

Let's see more of the land and figure out if there's a natural place to build the carnival (someplace a bit distant from the capital so that we can make good use of the culture, with lots of hammers available and maybe some forests to chop).

Can we have both?

We can have both, but we can't have both first .

[HidingKneel]

Alright, another turn played.

Up north, we encountered hostiles:



And Huey found... not much:



Sent the sandbox by email because zipping and uploading is a pain.

Dwarven vaults: low

[Mardoc]

Forgot that the vaults can go lower still .

Other confounding variables: it's worth something to make sure no one else can get the drama bard. And the flip side of that: if we don't manage to land it, we might end up with a carnival we didn't need, or a great person we have no use for.

Let's see more of the land and figure out if there's a natural place to build the carnival (someplace a bit distant from the capital so that we can make good use of the culture, with lots of hammers available and maybe some forests to chop).

Hmm, makes sense. We can't make full use of this path until we've researched one of Sanitations prereqs, regardless - granted it's a 20-30 turn delay between starting a Carnival and getting the Bard, but there are a lot of techs between here and there.

We can have both, but we can't have both first .

What kind of math are you using?

Ok, so Kilmorph is potentially worth 4 happiness, right? One for state religion, one for Religion civic, one for Temple with Religion civic, one for Temple with Gems. And also a fair bit of gold income, which also might add happiness. I suppose I agree that Kilmorph is the highest priority extra, then. Even if it does mean that we now have a good use for at least three Great People (Drama bulb, Academy, Tablets of Bambur). Guess that just means we need lots of cities with lots of food and some spec slots, though .

Actually - what do you think of aiming to work all of a sage, bard, and priest/merchant simultaneously, to speed GP production in general? Whatever we get, we can use. It'd take a while to set up a city that can do all of that, so we'd probably aim for Carnival first, then EC, then Temple to Kilmorph, somewhere.

Alright, another turn played.

Up north, we encountered hostiles:

Huh, dwarven resistance to poison might be worth something! Muris goblins ought to fight at Str 2.5 equiv, which makes this fort probably an excellent XP source for us.

In short term recommendations: I've got nothing. I like your plan, carry on .

[HidingKneel]

Short term plans...

Blitz tomorrow, so would be good to have some idea what we're doing. I don't think there are any really tough decisions, though.
Finish the worker. Farm the corn. Then move NW and farm the grasslands there. Then move to the incense, plantation that just as Calendar comes in. We grow to size 4 just in time to work incense. It's a low-food tile, but it'll only take us two turns to grow to size 5 regardless. Then the worker moves to farm the tile west of gems. Finishes one turn before mining comes in, has a beer, then mines the gems.

This is surely more than enough plan to get through the blitz. But just in case, I played around a little further.

I'm undecided about the question of worker -> settler or settler -> worker. Tried it both ways... not obvious to me which one is better. Worker takes 3 turns to build, but manages to shave a turn off the settler. The new city seems to be about one and a half turns behind in development that way until reaching its happy cap. On the other hand, we get some extra improvements built, and have more time to get roads in place for city number 3.

Definitely either worker -> settler -> worker -> settler or settler -> worker -> worker -> settler after reaching the happy cap, though.

I'm pretty convinced that God King is worth the turn of anarchy, though. At a happy cap of 5, the capital can be working
Incense + gems + corn + 2 mines, for a total of 14 hammers. So the hammer boost is worth 7 hammers per turn.
I don't think it'll take long to pay for the commerce lost during anarchy.

I'm now in favor of a Kilmorph beeline after exploration. Looks like we can get our third city founded and discover the religion on turn 40. I think we should be running religion at that point, and built a Temple of Kilmorph in the capital. That'll raise our effective happy cap from 5 to 9 (and we can grow to it near-instantaneously, with all the farms we've got around there).

Actually - what do you think of aiming to work all of a sage, bard, and priest/merchant simultaneously, to speed GP production in general? Whatever we get, we can use. It'd take a while to set up a city that can do all of that, so we'd probably aim for Carnival first, then EC, then Temple to Kilmorph, somewhere.

We've got marble and we're Ind, so it'll be easy for us to put up a National epic. And Arete gives a bonus to GP production. So we should definitely take advantage to set up a GP farm. I think this is more mid-game thinking, though. Early on, we might want to be more focused, at least if we're going for the bard.

(Looks like we can 1-turn an elder council in the capital with overflow from our second settler, assuming we're running god king and working a bunch of mines. Something to keep in mind... though I'd prefer to generate our great people in other cities, and use the capital to work great tiles.)